Folding Tri- the ultimate Med boat?

[Sea Change]

Tiny.

Compared to a Lagoon 450, sure. But compared to something like a 26ft trailer sailer?

Hot. Useless accommodation. No privacy. No shade. No aircon. Stern to berthing awkward at best. Rolly at anchor.

You're describing my old boat
Shade can be added. It should roll less than all the monos I've owned.
Stern to access could be interesting. If you fold the floats for reduced costs, it presumably matters whether they fold forwards or backwards. Food for thought.

No local dealers. No local repair experts.

I've never paid someone to fix my boat and I don't intend to start doing so. In case of a major breakage it would go back on the trailer and I'd fix it at home.

Utterly awful, I don’t get it. But if you like it so much, why not buy one?

You realise that the person you were replying to already has one?

 

[mikegunn]

Thanks, I should have maybe been clearer that this wouldn't be for full time liveaboard use.

We did five months in the Balearics in an undercanvassed 1970s 39ft centre cockpit Moody. Progress was certainly leisurely! I figure that to stand a better chance of doing any sailing at all, we'd need to look at something with excellent light winds performance.

Thanks for clarifying your needs, which are very different from those of liveaboards. I met a guy who lived in Switzerland but who kept a Dragonfly in a Greek marina for occasional use during the Summer months. In certainly worked for him and possibly could for you too. Go for it, because once you’ve sailed a decent trimaran anything else is an anticlimax.
Mike

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Compared to a Lagoon 450, sure. But compared to something like a 26ft trailer sailer?


You're describing my old boat
Shade can be added. It should roll less than all the monos I've owned.
Stern to access could be interesting. If you fold the floats for reduced costs, it presumably matters whether they fold forwards or backwards. Food for thought.



I've never paid someone to fix my boat and I don't intend to start doing so. In case of a major breakage it would go back on the trailer and I'd fix it at home.



You realise that the person you were replying to already has one?

In order..

Also awful as a med boat for all the same reasons
True but in a folding boat how will you arrange it
You need a plank or passarelle, there’s nowhere to add it, and the folded floats will be very difficult for adjacent boats to fender to
Ok
Don’t think so, AIUI Chiara Slave has a cat in the UK but happy to be corrected

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Sailing performance may or may not be excellent, but IMHO the compromises in every other aspect of its design make it useless as a med boat. I’ve never seen a trimaran in the med despite spending several weeks there every summer, that may be coincidence of course. Or maybe the boat buying public know nothing.

There’s a lot of experienced boaters here in Britain who’ve never seen one. Or at least not knowingly.

Downsides… principally cost and accomodation. Ours is 30ft, it has 4 sleepable berths, those Danes are tall. 4 round the saloon table, 6 at a push. 6 definitely in the cockpit for food/booze. Volume inside is probably like a modern 26 mono, but it’s longer and slimmer. All non grand prix tris have all 3 floats immersed at anchor, no noise, no rolling. Except for the centreboard, you pull that up to stop it clonking. Engine is an outboard, unless you’re Angus in his 35 footer. We have a power trim/tilt electric start 15. It is hassle free and gives us 8kn under power, cruise at 6-6.5. Dragonfly floats fold backwards. It will protect the rudder and engine when moored stern to. The steerable outboard makes manouverung easy, though you may struggle at first. It comes naturally after a bit of practice. I’m very sorry to cross swords with you, Sticky, I bear you no ill will, but you clearly know absolutely nothing about the boat. We regularly raft up with people, we favour motor boats cis their sides are flat, and match us. But it’s not that hard to fender up for a fat bellied sail boat.

 

[Sea Change]

Sailing performance may or may not be excellent, but IMHO the compromises in every other aspect of its design make it useless as a med boat. I’ve never seen a trimaran in the med despite spending several weeks there every summer, that may be coincidence of course. Or maybe the boat buying public know nothing.

You're correct, they're not common. I did see one in the Algarve but I don't recall any in the Med.
My thoughts, as I already said, are informed by one summer season in the Balearics. I spent five months at anchor in a centre cockpit mono. It was informative!

It seems that the majority of boats in the Med are used for day sails to and from marinas. The anchorages are often extremely busy and space is very tight. It can be very swelly, or at least the only available space can be too exposed.

I don't do marinas. I've been living aboard full time for nearly four years and it's well over two years since I last used a marina. It's partly a cost thing, but also peace, breeze, ability to swim straight off the boat, and I don't really enjoy the stress of manoeuvring amongst other people's expensive vessels.

So I came to the conclusion that you either go small, to squeeze in to tight spots in otherwise full anchorages, or you go so big that you can just sit way out the back where any normal sized mono would be rolling on her beam ends.

And then I thought, surely a small cat gives you both of these advantages? As would a tri. Make it a folding tri and now you're able to move it by road so you can do a season in Spain followed by a season in Greece... all without having to do hundreds of miles of delivery under sail... and you can bring it home at the end of the season.

Perhaps I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, but I need some sort of plan for when I'm too old to be bothered with full time tropical liveaboard sailing.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I daresay the main reason they are not common is cost. The new replacement for ours would leave little change from a quarter of a mill. Fortunately they do come up secondhand, or we couldn't have one either. People who pay that buy them for their exhilarating performance, the sheer fun of it, and perhaps because they’re the best swim platform out there. We bought ours to have a 7kn vmg to windward, to be able to sail round 95% of the boats we meet. We are 2 up, plenty of space for the 2 of us. We’ve had 2 Dragonflys and a Farrier F27. We love our 920. They sell for 65-80k, though you might get a tatty one for less.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Photo from another DF920 today

 

[Sea Change]

I daresay the main reason they are not common is cost. The new replacement for ours would leave little change from a quarter of a mill. Fortunately they do come up secondhand, or we couldn't have one either. People who pay that buy them for their exhilarating performance, the sheer fun of it, and perhaps because they’re the best swim platform out there. We bought ours to have a 7kn vmg to windward, to be able to sail round 95% of the boats we meet. We are 2 up, plenty of space for the 2 of us. We’ve had 2 Dragonflys and a Farrier F27. We love our 920. They sell for 65-80k, though you might get a tatty one for less.

Yes I've just been looking them up on Yachtworld
Like I say, this is just an idle musing. I'm not old enough to want to sail that close to home yet. Gives me time to save up I suppose...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Dragonfly Trimarans For Sale / Wanted - Dragonfly Trimarans User Forum

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Rolly at anchor.

Trimarans are the most stable of all boat designs at anchor for resistance to roll - better than catamarans and way better than monos, sail and power. It's not just their large beam. The main reason is that they have a low roll moment of inertia (because most of their mass is near the centre of roll rotation) and have huge roll damping courtesy of the buoyancy of the floats. There is a large distance of this damping force from the centre of roll - 4m for mine. Catamarans are much more liable to roll because they have a high roll moment of inertia - most of their mass is at the extremities. They are at their worst when they get into a resonant roll. Trimarans never do that.

I can understand why they will not be suitable for Med cruising, but thinking that they roll at anchor is the opposite of reality.

 

[Sea Change]

I can understand why they will not be suitable for Med cruising, but thinking that they roll at anchor is the opposite of reality.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Why do you not think they'd be suitable for the Med?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Why do you not think they'd be suitable for the Med?

Too expensive for the amount of space you get to live in. Low load carrying ability. Insufficient tankage. High maintenance.

 

[Sea Change]

Too expensive for the amount of space you get to live in. Low load carrying ability. Insufficient tankage. High maintenance.

Understood... but I'm not sure why Med sailing requires large tankage and load carrying capacity. You're never very far from shops etc.
But as I've said, my Med experience is very limited, I haven't been east of Menorca.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Too expensive for the amount of space you get to live in. Low load carrying ability. Insufficient tankage. High maintenance.

For what Sea Change has said his prospective use could be, I can’t see those things being much of a problem. You might want to rig additional shade, I daresay. Shroud link to boom, with a triangular shade sail? Living aboard, the space would be an issue, people aren’t prepared to put up with it like we all used to. We did 3 weeks on a DF800 with 2 kids, in the 90s. Glad we don’t have to any more. The higher stresses in tris mean careful inspection of hinges, waterstays, and general folding gear. I have no experience of maintaining a cruising mono, I just do whats needed. Other aspects of maintenance are easier. Keeping the hulls clean, for maximum performance for instance. Our handicap goes up and up though the season, as everyone else fouls up. You also get used to not allowing masses of clutter to build up, adding weight and occupying space. It fits with having a Skandi boat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Anyway, ultimate med boat or not, it probably is the ultimate sailing boat thatks actually attainable for ordinary sailors. If you want to go any faster, you’ll be into the zone of exotic one offs, foilers, MOD70s and the like. Here’s the Man himself (though some might say he’s the son of the man himmself) to show you what a tri is all about. If this triggers you, go and buy a Westerly Centaur.

 

[westernman]

I think you may have missed the first word in the post title - "Folding".

I understood it took 3 hours with a couple of gorillas to fold and unfold.

 

[John_Silver]

If you can forgo trailability (whilst keeping the foldability), there is exponentially more interior space (including full standing headroom, for very tall people, like Jens and Peter Quorning) on a Dragonfly 32, than a 28. Here are a 32 and 28, parked up in Camaret, to illustrate the point:



I speak 'only' as an interested party, in a trimaran for future coastal cruising (Atlantic France & Spain plus West Coast Ireland, are my usual stomping grounds), at higher speed (to avoid those predawn starts) and with flatter decks (more suited to dodgy kneees and wonky backs). So far, haven't sailed a DF32. But did get a day out, aboard a DF28, courtesy of UK agent, Al Wood. These were my impressions. Which could be summarised as 'speed without drama.' Impressive. As is build quality, which cannot be said for all proponents of the light weight / high speed creed.

 

[John_Silver]

I understood it took 3 hours with a couple of gorillas to fold and unfold.

A DF28 folds and unfolds in a circa 5 minute operation, whilst motoring out of the marina aisle. One man (yours truly) winding the handles. Based on my (one) experience. The ease of folding is a Dragonfly claim to fame.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I understood it took 3 hours with a couple of gorillas to fold and unfold.

To take a 920 to bits for trailering. I did expressly say that it could be left assembled and ready if it wasn’t going on the road. Or left folded on a mooring, like ours is. You don’t suppose we go into Yarmouth harbour in the summer, nearly 25ft wide? We fold in the offing before going in, it’s 2 mins if Mrs C is on the handle, 1 min 30 for me. The 3 hours would also include mast raising, without a crane, and fully rigging up.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I understood it took 3 hours with a couple of gorillas to fold and unfold.

This is my procedure:

1) Wrap the inhaul line around a winch. Remove and do it again getting the correct outhaul line this time.
2) Open a double cleat in a coaming pocket hidden under a forgotten half empty tube of soggy Pringles, last year's empty sun cream bottles, lost hats and itinerant Twix wrappers
3) Press button on electric winch to no effect. Press it again a few times in bemusement.
4) Realize you haven't switched on the isolator. Go below to resolve. Pick up a Twix.
5) Press said button again to better effect this time for about a minute, or long enough to eat half your Twix.
6) Close double cleat
7) Dispose of all the litter in the coaming pocket
8) Open a new Pringles tube, eat a few, and place in coaming pocket to become soggy and forgotten like the last one.
9) Repeat on the other side (2nd tube of Pringles not required), eating the other half of the Twix.
10) Connect the beam brace wires with their pelican hooks wondering, as usual, if there are any real pelicans nearby to compare.

It takes a minute to do each side for the competent. Incompetence, distractions and eating junk food during the process triple that time.