Fog - To go or not to go

[Fr J Hackett]

"given adequate visibility".

See posts #3 #13 &#35

 

[temptress]

Would we have gone? Depends if I thought it would clear then yes. Having said that we were in very heavy monsoon rain off Java a few months ago (think heavy fog) we had ais , radar and mark 1 eyeball on and still failed to see or hear a VLCC that passed less than 100m away. Closest we have come to a collision in 30 years.

Difficult decision to go or not.

 

[Uricanejack]

I have enough experience in fog to realise I don't need anymore.
Back to bed for me.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Would we have gone? Depends if I thought it would clear then yes. Having said that we were in very heavy monsoon rain off Java a few months ago (think heavy fog) we had ais , radar and mark 1 eyeball on and still failed to see or hear a VLCC that passed less than 100m away. Closest we have come to a collision in 30 years.

Difficult decision to go or not.

You radar did not pick up a VLCC time to change the radar or at least switch it on

 

[Robin]

You radar did not pick up a VLCC time to change the radar or at least switch it on

A HUGE target that close would normally pretty well wipe out everything else in mush, My guess is that the the rain control and sea clutter were turned up too far maybe to compensate in the heavy rain and the VLCC target contact went with it. That said Temptress, who I believe we met once many many years ago in Cherbourg is IMO way too experienced to make that error, but then 'sh!t happens'

 

[alant]

A HUGE target that close would normally pretty well wipe out everything else in mush, My guess is that the the rain control and sea clutter were turned up too far maybe to compensate in the heavy rain and the VLCC target contact went with it. That said Temptress, who I believe we met once many many years ago in Cherbourg is IMO way too experienced to make that error, but then 'sh!t happens'

Whilst working for UKSA some years ago, we came up from the Nab in one of the Challenge boats in thick fog. The 'boss' was an ex Challenge skipper who was ex RN radar specialist. Just able to see the bows 67' away, we entered Cowes harbour using radar with the 'boss' giving instructions from below. It was only when we emerged from the fog opposite Shepherds Yard, (pre pontoons era) did we realise that he had mistakenly conned us through the small boat moorings east of the entrance & been lucky not to hit anything with 43 tons of steel boat.
Similar boat, with same radar, couldn't 'see' St Helena, even though we were within a mile of it, so confidence in some radar is not high.

 

[ip485]

For me sailing in fog is like flying an aircraft in cloud, the two are remarkably similiar.

The key is to be absolutely certain your instruments are working, in the case of a boat ideally radar, ais and autohelm, which means having checked them out recently against known targets, and checking and rechecking your course against the chart plotter / chart to make certain it is correctly plotted and you are aware of all the obstacles.

Even then i am not convinced about manouvering through a mooring for example but i see no problem crossing "open" water.

If you dont absolutely need to depart in fog then i wouldnt, but if you cruise, it is well worth making sure you can cope if you must, and that you can feel confident in yourself and equipment.

 

[skipperwales]

I think this is a difficult call. I remember sailing up St Georges channel years ago in thick fog. Debbie Decca had lost it completely, the pifco RDF gave a cocked hat the size of Cardigan bay and it was a bit scary. There was a rumbling noise which got louder and louder until the High Speed Cat from Fishguard to Rosslare missed us by 100 yards, but we had a position line and depth, so all was good. Earlier this year I sailed overnight to Cadiz and ended up in a coastal fog bank mixed up with the local morning fishing fleet with AIS and radar targets all over the place, but they all seemed to steer around me, so its doable both the old fashioned way and the modern way, but neither were pleasant experiences.

What I think does help is some understanding of weather and why the fog is there. That gives some idea as to how long it will last and how far out to sea it will extend. That then helps with choices, whether to stay or go.

 

[ip485]

My last occasion was 2 am in the morning - typical one on watch and I had to get up! Apparently went from excellent viz to literally could not see the front of the boat in 15 minutes. The person on watch commented that it was just bizarre (there first experience) watching the shores lights suddenly fade away.

The passage ensued in fog pretty much to the marina. AIS was showing a large vessel anchored just off the marina in a very unusual place and I didnt totally fancy entering a narrow enetrance in almost not viz. A quick call over the VHF confirmed from the duty watch that the fog was just lifting around the dredger so the timing was perfect.

If you havent experienced it before it is eerie and even a bit disorientating, but I find the only really worry is finding yourself confronted with either a very small pleasure craft fishing without AIS and which doesnt show on the radar or maybe a bouy that isnt marked and also doesnt show or shows poorly. Even with good radar I think both are possible to miss but large enough to do enough damage never mind worrying about those on board.

There we sometimes go with the Grace of God.

Strangely same for flying and most small aircraft dont even have radar even if it would help you, which it almost certainly would not, and not all light aircraft have the transponders. Fortunately there has never been a mid air in the UK in IMC - basically in cloud.

 

[alant]

I think this is a difficult call. I remember sailing up St Georges channel years ago in thick fog. Debbie Decca had lost it completely, the pifco RDF gave a cocked hat the size of Cardigan bay and it was a bit scary. There was a rumbling noise which got louder and louder until the High Speed Cat from Fishguard to Rosslare missed us by 100 yards, but we had a position line and depth, so all was good. Earlier this year I sailed overnight to Cadiz and ended up in a coastal fog bank mixed up with the local morning fishing fleet with AIS and radar targets all over the place, but they all seemed to steer around me, so its doable both the old fashioned way and the modern way, but neither were pleasant experiences.

What I think does help is some understanding of weather and why the fog is there. That gives some idea as to how long it will last and how far out to sea it will extend. That then helps with choices, whether to stay or go.

If you have to ask the question, then you shouldnt go,

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If you have to ask the question, then you shouldnt go,

Absolutely spot on.

 

[Uricanejack]

If I am out on the water and get caught out in fog. I deal with it. Its not a new experience for me.

I would choose not to depart in Fog or if I expected fog. It is very disorientation. Even with RADAR. Particularly when your RADAR is a small simple heads up unstabilised display like mine.
There is more to than just following the plotter. The real hazard to your health and welfare is other traffic. Not all of which has AIS.
Easy to get disorientated particularly if you don't have a compass and someone used to steering by compass.
Even if you don't get disorientated and know exactly where you are and where you are going. What about the other vessels and what they are doing.

I could say big deal, I can handle all that. I could, I just don't want to. If I don't have to.

Just read the report on the fairly big power boat Peggoty It got run down by a Ferry which never even knew it had hit anything.
I read another MAIB report from a few years ago about a sailor who altered to port and was run down of the NE Coast of England in Fog.
The lady who drowned after her boat was hit by a dredger. Not sure if that was fog.

Its not just the big commercial ones you have to worry about. There lots of edgits around flying about at high speed in big power boats.

So when I look at the risk involved I figure why bother.
Id rather go back to bed, Wander into to a café and have a nice breakfast while I wait for the fog to lift.

 

[ip485]

I dont agree.

There is a first time for everything.

Of course you should ask the question(S), but if you are satisfied you are up to the task, then it is time to go.

The trick is knowing what questions to ask (yourself)!

For me for fog it would go something like this in the circumstances set out;

1. Have I thoroughly reviewed the charts, considered all potential obstacles and assessed whether I can navigate the area sufficiently accurately and safely,
2. Is the equipment required working and in satisfactory order, and do I have a back up plan should anything fail,
3. Are the crew briefed,
4. I am confident in my abilities as skipper and there anything likely to compromise my performance.

I might still feel a little trepidation, but otherwise good to go.

Edited to add

and seeing the last post which is very sound, for me I wouldnt go without radar which was up to the task, I wouldnt go without AIS and I wouldnt go without an up to date chart plotter simply because there is no need. However I have found myself back in the day in fog without any of these, and of course you deal with it as best you can, but the first mistake may have been poor planning in the first place (not that fog is always predictable).

 

[Uricanejack]

You are right there is a first time for everything.
For me it would not be the first time. Hopefully not the last either

It is an individual call as skipper you asses the situation and do what you think is appropriate.
You also have to consider how your crew, passengers, Wife feels about it. Unless you are alone.

I would say heading out into known fog conditions for the first time is not the best way to gain experience.

Going out at or overnight is a good time to get practice and familiarity with traffic around, using the skills you will need in fog.
with the RADAR, Plotting, Plotter. and conning.
Going out in poor visibility, not so bad. Then if you happen to be out when you encounter fog you are prepared for what could be your first experience.

Try practicing a radar approach at night. Its good prep. Particularly if you have to give conning instruction from a RADAR at the chart table.

You might notice I haven't mentioned the auto pilot. for two reasons one of which is I don't have one. The other is even if I did I prefer to have someone steering by hand in fog.

You might find you feel different about your first fog departure after you have tried your first fog arrival.
Like you say its an individual choice.
Mine
could I? yes.
Would I? No, Prefer not. There would have to be a darn good reason.

Your decision is up to you. Its your boat.

 

[alant]

You are right there is a first time for everything.
For me it would not be the first time. Hopefully not the last either

It is an individual call as skipper you asses the situation and do what you think is appropriate.
You also have to consider how your crew, passengers, Wife feels about it. Unless you are alone.

I would say heading out into known fog conditions for the first time is not the best way to gain experience.

Going out at or overnight is a good time to get practice and familiarity with traffic around, using the skills you will need in fog.
with the RADAR, Plotting, Plotter. and conning.
Going out in poor visibility, not so bad. Then if you happen to be out when you encounter fog you are prepared for what could be your first experience.

Try practicing a radar approach at night. Its good prep. Particularly if you have to give conning instruction from a RADAR at the chart table.

You might notice I haven't mentioned the auto pilot. for two reasons one of which is I don't have one. The other is even if I did I prefer to have someone steering by hand in fog.

You might find you feel different about your first fog departure after you have tried your first fog arrival.
Like you say its an individual choice.
Mine
could I? yes.
Would I? No, Prefer not. There would have to be a darn good reason.

Your decision is up to you. Its your boat.

"asses" is an apt description for some on here who seem to want to 'over-egg' their capabilities/experience.
This gung-ho attitude of setting out into fog, is completely irresponsible & bordering on stupidity.

 

[GrahamM376]

This gung-ho attitude of setting out into fog, is completely irresponsible & bordering on stupidity.

Not much different to flying on instruments as ip485 said. You need to trust the instruments and be used to operating your radar. Unlike Uricanejack, I find it much easier to become disorientated when hand steering than on autopilot and only go to hand when something is getting too close for comfort and I may have to alter course in a hurry. We've had more worrying moments with powerboats speeding blind than large vessels who are more predictable.

 

[lpdsn]

It's interesting this idea of never setting out in fog, rather than waiting for it to happen. Sooner or later you are going to be out in fog, so maybe better to do it in controlled low-risk situations first to get a bit of experience. Obviously, shipping or very strong tides or coastlines with depth countours you can't safely keep off using the echo sounder mean it isn't low risk.

 

[Uricanejack]

Not much different to flying on instruments as ip485 said. You need to trust the instruments and be used to operating your radar. Unlike Uricanejack, I find it much easier to become disorientated when hand steering than on autopilot and only go to hand when something is getting too close for comfort and I may have to alter course in a hurry. We've had more worrying moments with powerboats speeding blind than large vessels who are more predictable.

In some ways Conning a vessel in fog is similar to flying in limited Vis. With a very big difference. A Private Pilot. I have instruments I know what they are how to use them. But I do not have an instrument flying rating. So I cant fly in conditions bellow VFR limits.
For good reason. I do not have the required training or experience.
My comment on the use of the Auto pilot is more about response than disorientation.

I have found myself getting disorientated. In Fog. I was steering using RADAR. Altering course in a narrow channel. Fortunately I realised I was chasing the heading marker. Instead of steadying up on my intended course. I figured it out before I went right up on the beach. Stopped. Went back to steering a compass course. Now I much prefer to have someone else steer. Specifically so I don't become disorientated.
My reluctance to use the auto pilot in reduced vis. Particularly fog. Is more about look out and response. If you miss something on RADAR. you have very limited time to respond. Hand steering you can respond imeadatly. Auto pilot, response depends on the Auto pilot, How far away from it you are and how its set.
When hand steering you also have a hand right by the throttle and gear shift. same logic applies.

Of course how much crew do you have. Just me and my wife. One of my reasons for not going if I don't have to. Just the two of us we are a bit short crewed to fully maintain a proper lookout.
By sight and hearing, particularly if I am at the chart table with my face glued to the RADAR.
Using an auto pilot. Improves my look out. But then I am not ready for immediate maneuver. Nobody on the wheel or by the throttle.

Ok I am being a bit pedantic. I expect most of you here, will say this is utter rubbish. My answer this the minimum of what is what is generally expected by maintaining a proper lookout. In Fog.

One person in charge of "watch" navigating plotting, Radar ect.
Hand steering.
Designated lookout.

An interesting point a lot of small commercial boats have full crew of 1.

 

[Uricanejack]

It's interesting this idea of never setting out in fog, rather than waiting for it to happen. Sooner or later you are going to be out in fog, so maybe better to do it in controlled low-risk situations first to get a bit of experience. Obviously, shipping or very strong tides or coastlines with depth countours you can't safely keep off using the echo sounder mean it isn't low risk.

The interesting difference of opinion. Is about setting out leaving the dock knowing its Fog. Or encountering fog when you are already out which as you say is bound to happen eventually.
Two very different circumstances, One of which can be avoided.
One of the points of view expressed.
Reason for going, To gain experience. Specifically some suggest. There has to be a first time.

 

[Robin]

My most difficult trip in thick fog was end of season from my then swinging mooring to the winter lay up boatyard. Trying to steer looking t radar had me go in circles, total disorientation. Calmed down and set course on autopilot, much better this time stood behind wheel with finger ready to poke 'standby' and take over or tweak +/- the heading to pass between channel markers. out of harbour preferred to sit below and watch radar and adjacent plotter steering if need be by second pilot control at the chart table. SWMBO kept watch by eyeball from on deck behind the wheel ready for instant reaction if needed. In those days did not have or want the radar display out in the cockpit like on our later USA boats as it needs 100% monitoring 100% of the time in thick fog .Out at sea the radar was visible easily enough from the cockpit, enough to decide if serious plotting below was required. On our later boats here in the USA we had combined radar/plotter/AIS displays with MARPA and radar overlaid on chart, mounted in a consol on the coachroof.