Ex-SolentBoy
Well-Known Member
Having thought about it some more I am considering running a "fly the Union Jack" campaign.
Would I really be breaking the law, and if so which one?
Would I really be breaking the law, and if so which one?
Fly the Union Jack
- Thread starter Ex-SolentBoy
- Start date
daveyw
Well-Known Member
Do you mean the Union Flag or do you have a warship?
Ex-SolentBoy
Well-Known Member
Just an ordinary sailing boat I am afriad - I had to sell the Type 42 when I lost my commercial fuel designation!
Yes, I mean the flag that most people tihnk is the UK flag. On overseas trips with my boat many people have asked what country we are from when they see the red ensign. Most other countries fly their national flag. Why shouldn't we?
Yes, I mean the flag that most people tihnk is the UK flag. On overseas trips with my boat many people have asked what country we are from when they see the red ensign. Most other countries fly their national flag. Why shouldn't we?
Tugw
Well-Known Member
I fly the 'pilot jack'on the pointed end.(not many of us left you know)
temptress
Well-Known Member
What are you proposing and why?
In 1854, the Merchant Shipping Act included a specific provision that the Red Ensign was the appropriate flag for a British merchantman which includes Yachts. This provision was repeated in successive British shipping legislation (i.e., 1889, 1894 (section 73) and 1995).
Jacks are additional national flags flown by warships (and certain other vessels) at the head of the ship. These are usually flown while not underway and when the ship is dressed on special occasions. Jacks in the Royal Navy must be run up when the first line is ashore when coming alongside.
It is illegal for a merchant ship or yacht to fly the Union Flag (often called the Union Jack)
A civilian jack (sometimes known as the pilot jack as it was formerly used to request a pilot) exists, and consists of the Union Flag with a white border.
The St George's Cross flown from the jack staff is known as the Dunkirk jack, and is customarily flown by ships and boats which took part in the Dunkirk evacuation operation in 1940.
Ensigns are usually required to be flown when entering and leaving harbour, when sailing through foreign waters, and when the ship is signalled to do so by a warship.
Warships usually fly their ensigns between the morning colours ceremony and sunset, when underway, and at all times when engaged in battle. When engaged in battle a warship often flies multiple battle ensigns. This tradition dates from the era of sailing vessels. Tradition dictated that if a ship lowered its ensign it was deemed to have surrendered. Masts were targets of gunfire, and the second and subsequent ensigns were flown in order to keep the ensign flying even after a mast hit.
In 1854, the Merchant Shipping Act included a specific provision that the Red Ensign was the appropriate flag for a British merchantman which includes Yachts. This provision was repeated in successive British shipping legislation (i.e., 1889, 1894 (section 73) and 1995).
Jacks are additional national flags flown by warships (and certain other vessels) at the head of the ship. These are usually flown while not underway and when the ship is dressed on special occasions. Jacks in the Royal Navy must be run up when the first line is ashore when coming alongside.
It is illegal for a merchant ship or yacht to fly the Union Flag (often called the Union Jack)
A civilian jack (sometimes known as the pilot jack as it was formerly used to request a pilot) exists, and consists of the Union Flag with a white border.
The St George's Cross flown from the jack staff is known as the Dunkirk jack, and is customarily flown by ships and boats which took part in the Dunkirk evacuation operation in 1940.
Ensigns are usually required to be flown when entering and leaving harbour, when sailing through foreign waters, and when the ship is signalled to do so by a warship.
Warships usually fly their ensigns between the morning colours ceremony and sunset, when underway, and at all times when engaged in battle. When engaged in battle a warship often flies multiple battle ensigns. This tradition dates from the era of sailing vessels. Tradition dictated that if a ship lowered its ensign it was deemed to have surrendered. Masts were targets of gunfire, and the second and subsequent ensigns were flown in order to keep the ensign flying even after a mast hit.
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Ex-SolentBoy
Well-Known Member
What am I proposing? - To start a campaign to allow us to fly our national flag (which to me is the Union Jack) on my boat.
Why? - bacause it is a supposedly free country and I want to.
Thank you for the lesson in baing pedantic, but I just want to know what law it is that says I cannot.
Not interested in tradition, not interested in etiquette, just want to tie a certain coloured bit of cloth to my boat without going to prison!
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
Given that only irritating pedantic know it alls really only look upon our flag and call it the Union Flag, whilst the rest of the world calls it the Union Jack, isn't it about time that we consented that the Union Jack is actually the flags name, and not a description of the flag flown at the stem of a warship?
sailorman
Well-Known Member
temptress
Well-Known Member
A:
Merchant Shipping Act 1995 (c. 21)
......"
(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to Government ships.
(3) The following are also proper national colours, that is to say—
(a) any colours allowed to be worn in pursuance of a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State;
(b) in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.
(b) in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.
(4) Any Order under subsection (3)(b) above shall be laid before Parliament after being made. "
So you need an act of Parliment to do what you want.............
the act goes on to define:
"Offences relating to British character of ship
(1) If the master or owner of a ship which is not a British ship does anything, or permits anything to be done, for the purpose of causing the ship to appear to be a British ship then, ,,,,,,
.......
....apply in particular to acts or deliberate omissions as respects—
(a) the flying of a national flag; "
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Tugw
Well-Known Member
If my understanding is correct(please tell me if im wrong) you want to fly the union jack from your boat.So do i,and as i said,the only 'legal' way was for me to fly the pilot jack from the bow.i made this decision based on countless questions to various people and clubs that amounted to nothing. so i opted for what seems to be the only way of flying the union jack-on its own.without being shot at dawn.
I.E. The Pilot Jack
I.E. The Pilot Jack
Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I think the best reason not to fly the union jack is because the fact that Britain has not one, but three ensigns reflects a fantastic and glorious history in seafaring achievement and dominance. Personally I'm more than happy not being allowed to fly the Union Jack because that is not the flag that flew when we won Trafalgar, or the Battle of the Atlantic or when RKJ did his circumnavigation etc.
Ex-SolentBoy
Well-Known Member
Many thanks to all.
So, to sum up I can fly a Union Jack from the front of my boat, but not from the back! (Proper nautical terminology deliberately inserted to annoy the pedantic).
Amazing that our country actually spent time, thought and tax-payers money to prevent us from flying our own flag.
Definitely time to start a campaign. A change to the law seems well due.
NorthUp
Well-Known Member
No, you may not, any more than you can fly a French flag there, just because you like the look of it.
You may fly a 'pilot jack' as has been pointed out earlier.
If you dont like the definition of a 'jack' in relation to flags, you may invent another name if you want, but it will still be wrong.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
You must become hysterical every time you see a car doing 80mph on the motorway.
Lighten up, all of you!
Ex-SolentBoy
Well-Known Member
Did I miss something here? Why is sailing full of pedants?
The Union Flag Bill of 2008 (yes that is from our own parliament) says that you can call it the Union Jack or Union Flag - it's up to you.
The Union Flag Bill of 2008 (yes that is from our own parliament) says that you can call it the Union Jack or Union Flag - it's up to you.
NorthUp
Well-Known Member
Maybe if you are sailing the town hall, but at sea fly the relevant ensign!
Do you have your own special names for the bits of string on your boat?
LONG_KEELER
Well-Known Member
Loved it !
I hope you do. If you get nicked say you are neither a merchant or navy ship.
I suspect that you will get so much flack from bothersome yotties that you will give up after say 2 nights in the first marina you go to next season. A double dare would be to tie up next to a Blue Ensign bod.
I am willing to put up a tenner for you to start a fighting fund .
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Like, 'string' for instance.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
That's the reality on the South Coast. Too many t**ts about. There's a pedantic dayskipper on every pontoon, rubbernecking about to spot something to whine about. There was a guy on another thread who spent nearly 10 minutes photographing boats without motoring cones! John 11:35.
It didn't happen 25 years ago - I blame the RYA.
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Woodlouse
Well-Known Member
I reckon it's Gordon Browns fault.
