Fleming 58 video

[scubaman]

It's a market distortion, plain and simple. Demand and offer, nothing else.
The very same reason which is driving the prices of P boats, just the other way round.
Price of everything and value of nothing, yet again, springs to mind...

No doubt helped by the low numbers of LMRYs of various makes on the used market and appointed dealers who thus have a strong influence on the asking prices.

You know I also find the prices of trawlers difficult to understand and if it weren't for the big fat elephant in the room, it would be easy to go along with your view about the desirability of older planing boats picking up again...

 

[MapisM]

Just had confirmation that Play d'eau's fins are 6 sqft and can be upgraded to 7.5 sqft for better stabilisation in nasty seas. Just one question remains to be answered by ABT, and that's "As she is a Trunnion Bushing system I’d like the factory to consider and approve the fin increase" whatever that means.

I can't comment on the Trunnion Bushing thing, but the need for a factory approval sounds very odd indeed considering that the 220 actuator is rated for up to 7.5 fins, according to their own specs - as if they weren't drafted by the factory itself...?!?

Anyway, it's good news that my guess was right!
Just for the records, the train of thought I exchanged via email with Piers was as follows:
1) According to the current Fleming specs for the 55 and the 58, the former comes with the 220 actuator and the latter with the 250 actuator, but both with 7.5 sqft fins.
2) As I recalled, the 220 is mostly used with 6 sqft fins, and the 250 with 7.5.
3) This made me wonder if Fleming didn't use 6 sqft first, and eventually moved to 7.5 at some point, after realizing that they worked better also on the 55.
4) So, knowing that Play d'Eau has been around for a while, I guessed that she might have been fitted with 6 sqft fins before Fleming decided to fit the 7.5 - Q.E.D. :encouragement:

Apropos, this is in itself another reason why I can't understand ABT doubt, unless they changed/strengthened the 220 actuator over time, maybe...

 

[MapisM]

From an outsiders perspective I'd be interested to hear your reasoning why a SD heavyweight is 30 tons heavier than say a similar 24 m P hull production boat bearing in mind the engines and drive train in the SD are lighter / smaller . Where are they getting all that extra mass form from ?

Mmmm... Should we really continue the debate along the lines of goalposts shifting? Ok, let's, if you wish.
I'd also be interested to hear your reasoning why a N68 is 20T heavier than a ORY700.
Mind, that would be 30T, if it weren't that I already discounted the ballast and the higher fuel and water capacity of the former - which also happens to be single engine, btw....

 

[MapisM]

No doubt helped by the low numbers of LMRYs of various makes on the used market and appointed dealers who thus have a strong influence on the asking prices.

You know I also find the prices of trawlers difficult to understand and if it weren't for the big fat elephant in the room, it would be easy to go along with your view about the desirability of older planing boats picking up again...

Do you mean fuel prices?
Well, if so, I just downgraded from a 15 lph trawler (a REAL one, not an SD boat) to a 150 lph speed demon, and one of the main reasons (based on S calculations, no man math involved! ) was reducing the TCO in perspective - go figure...!
That said, of course I can predict anything but the future.

Regardless, all I can say about the first of your sentences above is AMEN!

 

[MapisM]

Here is Sleipner actuator being installed

Forgive me J for questioning something made by Sleipner p), but what were they thinking when they sticked the "moving parts - keep clear" labels on the cylinders, and nothing on the arm, which is the only part that really moves a lot...

 

[jfm]

Forgive me J for questioning something made by Sleipner p), but what were they thinking when they sticked the "moving parts - keep clear" labels on the cylinders, and nothing on the arm, which is the only part that really moves a lot...

Feel free to question Sleipner! I've never worried about their decal policy but I'd guess it might be because the slight arc movement of the rams is possibly a surprise to a non engineer whereas the movement of the tiller/yoke is obvious. But that's just a guess on my part. It could also be that they couldn't easily stick a sticker on the tiller because it is forged so has a non mirror surface and is compound curved. ABT might think along same lines because they put a pinch point warning on the lock rather than the cylinder and tiller - the lock movement is more likely to surprise someone I guess. Naiad have no stickers at all, so there is no common approach here (Naiad, incidentally, is fully assembled ready to be dropped in by the boatbuilder, like Sleipner and in contrast to ABT Trac).

 

[scubaman]

Do you mean fuel prices?

I mean environmental matters and all that follows.

 

[MapisM]

Interesting thought.
Do you envisage some sort of discrimination between P boats and more frugal ones?
I am aware of several restrictions in lakes and rivers, but none of them are based on that.
It's usually a matter of no mobos allowed at all, or sometimes allowed only up to very low power.
I mean, like 5hp, which is just an easier/more controllable way to restrict the boat size and speed - regardless of the fact that some old 2 stroke 5hp o/b convert more petrol in smoke than in power...!

Otoh, on the sea, I can't see anything like that coming.
Aside from possibly - but that brings us to my first thought - increasing taxes on boat fuel.
Anyway, it's certainly true that for those who REALLY want to go RTW by boat (as opposed to dreaming about it), the most logical choice is a sailboat. And having met a few chaps who did just that, I'm sure they would laugh at our debates about P/SD/D mobos - and very rightly so, imho... :ambivalence:

 

[jfm]

Anyway, it's certainly true that for those who REALLY want to go RTW by boat (as opposed to dreaming about it), the most logical choice is a sailboat

+100

 

[Nautical]

No doubt helped by the low numbers of LMRYs of various makes on the used market and appointed dealers who thus have a strong influence on the asking prices.

You know I also find the prices of trawlers difficult to understand and if it weren't for the big fat elephant in the room, it would be easy to go along with your view about the desirability of older planing boats picking up again...

Despite any argument about whether a well founded SD or D boat is better built or not than a production P boat , isn't it nice to know that the depreciation is so low that you can motor about to your hearts content for ten years and still regain 70% or more or your initial investment rather than bin half of it or more down the drain .

The fact of the matter is whether one likes it or not there is no such thing as a cheap nordhavn or fleming or ORY , how those builders retain their products value is really irrelevant to the buyer save to say many a P boat builder would give their right arm to maintain the residuals of the LRMY / Trawler brigade , would certainly make a huge difference to their very skinny and often shaky financial situation . But a lot of it is a about ego and who's got the latest fashion or is driving fashion .

And yes part of the truth is limited availability and carefully controlling the market and making sure buyers investing in the product do so with confidence , and that last time I checked is not a failing but sound business both for the builder and the client.

 

[Piers]

I can't comment on the Trunnion Bushing thing, but the need for a factory approval sounds very odd indeed considering that the 220 actuator is rated for up to 7.5 fins, according to their own specs - as if they weren't drafted by the factory itself...?!?

Anyway, it's good news that my guess was right!
Just for the records, the train of thought I exchanged via email with Piers was as follows:
1) According to the current Fleming specs for the 55 and the 58, the former comes with the 220 actuator and the latter with the 250 actuator, but both with 7.5 sqft fins.
2) As I recalled, the 220 is mostly used with 6 sqft fins, and the 250 with 7.5.
3) This made me wonder if Fleming didn't use 6 sqft first, and eventually moved to 7.5 at some point, after realizing that they worked better also on the 55.
4) So, knowing that Play d'Eau has been around for a while, I guessed that she might have been fitted with 6 sqft fins before Fleming decided to fit the 7.5 - Q.E.D. :encouragement:

Apropos, this is in itself another reason why I can't understand ABT doubt, unless they changed/strengthened the 220 actuator over time, maybe...

I'll let you now the outcome. But thanks MapisM for the advice. As I said, if this come off, I'll see if MBY would like an upgrade article to MBY Our Boats.

 

[Piers]

Where as those stabiliser rams may be not so user friendly? - throw away part ?

Hmmm. Replacement ram with new rod end in May 2017 was approx £700 ex VAT.

 

[scubaman]

Despite any argument about whether a well founded SD or D boat is better built or not than a production P boat , isn't it nice to know that the depreciation is so low that you can motor about to your hearts content for ten years and still regain 70% or more or your initial investment rather than bin half of it or more down the drain .
.....
And yes part of the truth is limited availability and carefully controlling the market and making sure buyers investing in the product do so with confidence , and that last time I checked is not a failing but sound business both for the builder and the client.

I hope you forgive me my choice of words, but to me that sounds like a bubble in the LMRY-market susceptible to disruption.

The genre has a lot going for it. It's more socially acceptable than a P boat (eco wise), it's economical to run and maintain, etc., etc. IMHO and for the type of boating I'd like to do, their big achilles' heel are the hopeless outdoor living areas compared to similar sized P boats. In fact, often the indoor areas a pretty poor cousins as well. I know this is a generalisation, but a relevant one in my view.

As it is, anyone wishing to slow down or have the ability to cruise further have no where else to go but the usual suspects mentioned already many times on this thread.

I would love to see a scaled down San Lorenzo 460EXP, for instance, built by an upper end mainstream production builder. A sturdily built boat with comfortable living spaces and a proper ability to cruise further but without being equipped for circumnavigating the antarctic, which I'd argue, is a massive overkill for quite a few current LMRY buyers.

Oh yes, there could be a nod to up-to-date exterior design as well. I'm aware of the Azimut Magellano range but imo, they are more SD and thus not in this category.

Such an alternative would probably be of interest to lot of people looking into the LMRY-market now. And this would obviously leave the second hand prices of the current boats very vulnerable.

All very much IMHO, as always.

 

[scubaman]

Interesting thought.
Do you envisage some sort of discrimination between P boats and more frugal ones?

Not necessarily by legislation nor taxation in the short run, but by social pressure from our peers and offspring.

 

[Nautical]

I hope you forgive me my choice of words, but to me that sounds like a bubble in the LMRY-market susceptible to disruption.

The genre has a lot going for it. It's more socially acceptable than a P boat (eco wise), it's economical to run and maintain, etc., etc. IMHO and for the type of boating I'd like to do, their big achilles' heel are the hopeless outdoor living areas compared to similar sized P boats. In fact, often the indoor areas a pretty poor cousins as well. I know this is a generalisation, but a relevant one in my view.

As it is, anyone wishing to slow down or have the ability to cruise further have no where else to go but the usual suspects mentioned already many times on this thread.

I would love to see a scaled down San Lorenzo 460EXP, for instance, built by an upper end mainstream production builder. A sturdily built boat with comfortable living spaces and a proper ability to cruise further but without being equipped for circumnavigating the antarctic, which I'd argue, is a massive overkill for quite a few current LMRY buyers.

Oh yes, there could be a nod to up-to-date exterior design as well. I'm aware of the Azimut Magellano range but imo, they are more SD and thus not in this category.

Such an alternative would probably be of interest to lot of people looking into the LMRY-market now. And this would obviously leave the second hand prices of the current boats very vulnerable.

All very much IMHO, as always.

I take on board what you say and there maybe an element of truth with regards to some LRMY in terms of their "Achilles heel" , but look around and you will find the likes of ORY offer in fact to many the perfect med cruising yacht. Take the 700 series, the flybridge is simply enormous compared to a 70 FB planning yacht., there is space for a 15' tender to go athwartships, four or five proper sun loungers forward of the that and then a huge area under the hard top that can accommodate 10 plus the skipper and two stidds along with a big alfresco galley with full sized BBQ, fridges , ice maker, sink, prep area and storage . Under the prow of the FB is a humougous space for deck chairs, tables, inflatable slides , toys , HT ladder and space to still crawl around in. On the fordeck there is pull out sunbed and space for 4 -5 free standing chairs and table and can be optioned with sun awning , Aft deck is pretty huge too, dining for 6 - 8 and if you option the aft galley layout a full sliding window reveals a cocktail bar area and seating . When is comes to internal space , the entire main deck is open plan and can be with a touch of button enclosed away form the pilothouse for night passage, there is a good sized day head on the main deck with internal access and also access from the side deck (how many planning production boats have that ?) , the galley is as big as your home kitchen with dishwasher , trash compactor, double domestic sized sinks, huge American side by side fridge freezer , five burner gas stove, 1 1/2 size oven and loads of counter space and even an Island unit for food preparation. Saloon has seating for 7 plus two recliners, pilothouse has another settee for 5 plus skipper . External and internal real estate is a lot more than a 70 FB P hull (which is actually usually only a 65' or less hull, they just add the over hangs and hydraulic platform dims to get the bigger LOA. where as the 70 LRMY is bang on a 70' moulded hull length .

And then there is the crew space on top of the four cabins, two crew cabins, crew heads and shower and then a crew galley and a workshop which then leads on into a full walk in stand up engine room big enough to play table tennis in.

How's my sales technique? or am I fired from YBW again

 

[jfm]

Great stuff! But T, to cut to the chase, where is it on a European cool board?

 

[Nautical]

Great stuff! But T, to cut to the chase, where is it on a European cool board?

Man, Its off the scale !

Not so traditional interiors after all (albeit you can go all shipy and yachty as you want ala 1930's gentlemen's yacht as well). when your done with the med thing you can then head off to the Azores or Iceland or where ever you want and in 5 years its still a valuable asset if you want out.

That's pretty cool ...... and if you want and can afford the go go juice you can have the full fat C32's for 24 knots .

 

[MapisM]

How's my sales technique? or am I fired from YBW again

Why, when were you? I must have missed that!

Back to the point, now you are talking, T. If you say that an ORY 70 can be a great Med boat, I fully agree.
Mind, full respect for those guys who went round Cape Horn with an ORY 80, but they also choose the wrong tool for the job, imho.
Now, if I'd be interested in a 70 footer for Med cruising and living aboard, an ORY would surely be among my top choices.
Then again, the VFM argument comes back: in the current market, I could buy an SL72 in excellent conditions at one third of the price of any used ORY/GB/Fleming of similar size - if not even less.
And I'm sure you'll agree that an SL72 ain't a bad Med boat either...

 

[vas]

sorry just went through this lot on the seals issue.
Note, seal failure is most likely a by product of the misalignment that caused the piston to score the inside of the cylinder and oil leaking. Hence not a simple seal replacement job like the one PF guy with the Arnesons does, but a full ram replacement. Same thing that happened to my passerelle ram ending up making a new one after a half season solution of replacing the seals...

JFM, with all this discussion going on regarding stabs, would really like to hear your views (if you have some time to write them down that is!) on stabs on MiToS, not trying to drift/highjack the thread though, so PM's fine.

cheers

V.

 

[TwoHooter]

Just spotted your signature - was in Southwold on Sunday and saw your Nordhavn. Commented to SWMBO that you don’t see many around and particularly in Southwold. Lovely boat

She looks at home I think . Very happy to be there for our winter jobs.