Fleming 58 video

[MapisM]

Go take a walk around the docks in Alaska, the North West, Maine, even around Fort Lauderdale or western seaboard EU and ask those boaters do they want a fast boat but mostly fair weather or slower but get you anywhere you want and the percentages will be different, still a lot of P boats but a much higher smattering of Nordhavn, Fleming, ORY, GB , Offshore, Marlow and many others.

...

I am all for design and all but looking at some of the latest offerings you gotta be thinking ..."what the hell ? " , I can think of a few 10 years from now you'll be sniggered at for owning one of those Heath Robinson design efforts which of course means the ass drops out of the price pretty smartish.

T, your suggestion to walk around the docks in those places made me smile, because obviously you must have forgot that this is my favorite hobby, wherever I go!
Since you started from AK, going CCW from there, I practiced a bit of that in all the following places:
Anchorage, Tofino, Port Alberni, Nanaimo, Vancouver, Sidney, Victoria, Anacortes, Seattle - as that's just as far as PNW goes.
I don't even try to remember all the marinas where I've been in CA (Dana Point included, btw) and FL, let alone the whole E coast, up to Maine and also further north - Lunenburg, Halifax and also the whole Gaspè peninsula, where I met a couple of very nice boaters (yatties, as it happens).

Now, I can't (nor want to!) make any scientific statistics out of it, but we must have spoken with different folks around there, because my impression is different than yours, in more ways than one.
To start with, the whole generalization about US moboers being much more interested in long distance cruising than EU boaters is imho just that, a sweeping generalization.
If I should make any generalizations about US boaters, I'd go as follows:
- for the average US boater, there's one and only Mecca, and it's Florida. Anything else is just a second best.
- the recipe for his dream boating day is based on a fridge full of booze (first and foremost!) plus a 60 feet Hatteras/Viking/Bertram (pick your poison) with oversized Cat C32 engines, capable of rushing back home at 30mph in time for BBQueing or selling to a restaurant the catch of the day, proudly burning 150 GPH in the process. Oh, and possibly in glorious sunshine with flat seas of course - zero difference with Med boaters, in this respect!
- the other boating dream, for those who can spend more than just the odd day out, is the Great Loop, which as you know is mostly along inland waters - 'nuff said.
- those who want to cross oceans by boat are actually a tiny minority also in the US, and out of these few who possibly end up buying a Nordie or similar, just a minority of the minority (so to speak) actually make it happen, for one reason or another.

Otoh, I couldn't agree more on your last statement which I quoted above, in terms of boating design.
But, and it's a big BUT, I have a funny feeling that the "proper boat" look is only attractive to us baby boomers, which are becoming old farts by now.
And most importantly, the very same goes for the features of "proper" D/SD vs. P boats.
For most newcomers to pleasure boating, how a Fleming looks and performs is not attractive at all, imho.
In fact - and mark my words, because I'm fully aware that almost nobody in the industry would agree - I wouldn't be surprised if in the next years the prices on the second hand market would somehow reverse, i.e. increasing for P boats more than for any others.
Time will tell...

 

[MapisM]

I've been in touch with Brian George, the ABT guru at Golden Arrow (UK Distributors) and he advises, "Zing has a point to some degree. However all his concerns are taken care of with the use of the Servo Valve Assembly 31908 and its controlling software. When a TRAC kit leaves the factory the Servo Box and its 190 parameters are 90% pre-programmed for the ordering yacht as they know the cylinder area ratios for extend/retract etc etc. We finish off the 10% of parameters during commissioning and can ‘play’ with the pre-programmed gains if need be. Also if everything was handed Port or Stbd, imagine the cost hike as you would have to produce two parts instead of one. And you could guarantee when you needed a Stbd Cylinder the only one left in stock would be a Port one."

P, maybe something got lost in translation, because obviously no ABT engineer needs an egg sucking teacher as myself.
But just for sake of clarity, it's not the cylinder that should be different between port and stbd, to avoid the problem (imho just academic) which jfm and Zing pointed out.
It's the actuator lever which should be handed, in order to allow the (very same) cylinder to be installed in a symmetrical rather than identical position.

Fwiw, I agree with everything else, and if for any reason the system was not calibrated properly during the commissioning (and if it was, it should be documented), it's definitely worth doing it.

 

[Nautical]

T, your suggestion to walk around the docks in those places made me smile, because obviously you must have forgot that this is my favorite hobby, wherever I go!
Since you started from AK, going CCW from there, I practiced a bit of that in all the following places:
Anchorage, Tofino, Port Alberni, Nanaimo, Vancouver, Sidney, Victoria, Anacortes, Seattle - as that's just as far as PNW goes.
I don't even try to remember all the marinas where I've been in CA (Dana Point included, btw) and FL, let alone the whole E coast, up to Maine and also further north - Lunenburg, Halifax and also the whole Gaspè peninsula, where I met a couple of very nice boaters (yatties, as it happens).

Now, I can't (nor want to!) make any scientific statistics out of it, but we must have spoken with different folks around there, because my impression is different than yours, in more ways than one.
To start with, the whole generalization about US moboers being much more interested in long distance cruising than EU boaters is imho just that, a sweeping generalization.
If I should make any generalizations about US boaters, I'd go as follows:
- for the average US boater, there's one and only Mecca, and it's Florida. Anything else is just a second best.
- the recipe for his dream boating day is based on a fridge full of booze (first and foremost!) plus a 60 feet Hatteras/Viking/Bertram (pick your poison) with oversized Cat C32 engines, capable of rushing back home at 30mph in time for BBQueing or selling to a restaurant the catch of the day, proudly burning 150 GPH in the process. Oh, and possibly in glorious sunshine with flat seas of course - zero difference with Med boaters, in this respect!
- the other boating dream, for those who can spend more than just the odd day out, is the Great Loop, which as you know is mostly along inland waters - 'nuff said.
- those who want to cross oceans by boat are actually a tiny minority also in the US, and out of these few who possibly end up buying a Nordie or similar, just a minority of the minority (so to speak) actually make it happen, for one reason or another.

Otoh, I couldn't agree more on your last statement which I quoted above, in terms of boating design.
But, and it's a big BUT, I have a funny feeling that the "proper boat" look is only attractive to us baby boomers, which are becoming old farts by now.
And most importantly, the very same goes for the features of "proper" D/SD vs. P boats.
For most newcomers to pleasure boating, how a Fleming looks and performs is not attractive at all, imho.
In fact - and mark my words, because I'm fully aware that almost nobody in the industry would agree - I wouldn't be surprised if in the next years the prices on the second hand market would somehow reverse, i.e. increasing for P boats more than for any others.
Time will tell...

Yep I would say we have differing opinions on it.

Yes the majority of leisure boats in the US are P hulls or big sport fishers , but don't be fooled by those big sportfishers only being day boaters , they take their game fishing very seriously and will often set off for several days tracking the fish , the latest fashion is to bring a big 25 - 30' tender with triple outboards on the fore deck of the big boats and send them off scouting for the fish .

As far as the long distance guys go yes they are still in the minority but much more of them than in the Med, and there are loads of them that really do make long passages . nearly all the LRMY of any note have all been born out of the US , Fleming, Marlow, Offshore, Hampton, ORY, Grand Banks , Paragon, Nordhavn , pretty much all of them, they wouldn't have developed or been around for so long if it were just a passing fad and they account for around 15% of the business in new build and heading for 20% .

I think it will be a long wait to see P production boats pass the residual values of the likes of Fleming , Nordhavn or ORY , hell might freeze over first . They have for 30 years always (assuming well maintained) fetched way higher residual numbers than production boats . Without discrediting anyone those that have been around long enough and gone through the pain of depreciation of new build production boats figure it out eventually, the market will only pay what something is worth and there is no way round it a Jeanneau or Azimut or similar is just never going to compete with the engineering and prowess of a Nordhavn, Fleming or ORY . It take's around 40,000 hours to build a high end LRMY custom 80' and about 15,000 for a production planning boat , even the very best of them . Add in the joinery is way heavier, the laminations are massive , the plumbing and electrical installs are superior in every way and most have hydraulic thrusters , stabs , big cranes and all high end equipment, no MASE cheapo gensets here or cable tie overload in the engineroom .

Again you pay your money take your choice , not knocking cheaper second hand P boats , they offer great VFM for the average med boater but they are never going out Nordhavn a Nordhavn or an ORY et al in terms of longevity or ability, and like everything else in life that stands the test of time and durability, that comes at a price.

 

[Piers]

P, maybe something got lost in translation, because obviously no ABT engineer needs an egg sucking teacher as myself.
But just for sake of clarity, it's not the cylinder that should be different between port and stbd, to avoid the problem (imho just academic) which jfm and Zing pointed out.
It's the actuator lever which should be handed, in order to allow the (very same) cylinder to be installed in a symmetrical rather than identical position.

Fwiw, I agree with everything else, and if for any reason the system was not calibrated properly during the commissioning (and if it was, it should be documented), it's definitely worth doing it.

Ah - understood. Thank you.

The history of Play d'eau's stabilisers has been 'interesting.'

Right from taking delivery, there were slight oil leaks around the actuators on both sides. When investigated, I was advised they were from the header tanks' total loss oil supply, so nothing to worry about. Some years later, the port cylinder's piston seal failed. The cause was found to be that the yoke had not been fitted at the correct position on the actuator shaft thereby placing the piston at a slight angle to its cylinder, in turn placing pressure on the seal.

Two years later, the same happened on the stbd assembly.

How annoying was that? Initial incorrect fitting caused two costly repairs.

 

[MapisM]

It take's around 40,000 hours to build a high end LRMY custom 80' and about 15,000 for a production planning boat , even the very best of them . Add in the joinery is way heavier, the laminations are massive , the plumbing and electrical installs are superior in every way and most have hydraulic thrusters , stabs , big cranes and all high end equipment, no MASE cheapo gensets here or cable tie overload in the engineroom .

Again you pay your money take your choice , not knocking cheaper second hand P boats , they offer great VFM for the average med boater but they are never going out Nordhavn a Nordhavn or an ORY et al in terms of longevity or ability, and like everything else in life that stands the test of time and durability, that comes at a price.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, T.
I never bought the argument that the better residuals of LRMY are justified by their better construction before P boats took a big hit following the financial meltdown, but saying that nowadays is beyond a joke.
And also the better-everything in the construction is just another sweeping generalization.
It's a pity that due to Photobucket ransom the pics in this thread are not visible anymore (and I can't be bothered to re-publish them), but you can trust me if I tell you that I have yet to see anything built in Taiwan which could hold a candle to the joinery of that Canados.
And when I say anything, I mean it: Ta-shing built Nordies, Flemings, GBs, ORYs, Marlows, you name it.

The high second hand prices of these boats are only very partially justified by the technical components inside them (btw, with engines and transmissions, it's actually the other way round - and by a HUGE factor, particularly when compared with Nordies or other full D boats, but also with SD twin engine boats), nor the higher manpower cost can justify that (c'mon T, are you for real there? ), or their longevity (there's no reason on Earth why a good P boat can't last as much as any other good boat, if it weren't that on average they are more neglected than most LRMYs - see previous example, which is even, heaven forbid, wooden built!).

It's a market distortion, plain and simple. Demand and offer, nothing else.
The very same reason which is driving the prices of P boats, just the other way round.
Price of everything and value of nothing, yet again, springs to mind...

 

[Greg2]

Michael
N4052 Coracle, Southwold Harbour

Just spotted your signature - was in Southwold on Sunday and saw your Nordhavn. Commented to SWMBO that you don’t see many around and particularly in Southwold. Lovely boat

 

[Bouba]

I think that Nordhavn marketing is very good. Planing boats are advertised with bikini clad models hanging precariously onto the foredeck while going forty knots, Nordhavn show whale watching. A single rich guy might buy into the babe magnet appeal but most expensive boats are bought by couples nearing the end of their working lives. That promise of the ultimate getaway is very appealing, even if it’s never realized. The other thing is that, although rare, Nordhavns have a high profile in Europe but very few of the others are even known about.
I don’t know if MapisM is right about those of us who like the shippy look are dying off but I love the faux workboat look. But I’ve always wondered why has the ultimate workboat, the warship, never been translated to the leisure market? Perhaps the market is ready as it might explain the penchant for grey hulls nowadays

 

[Piers]

Just had confirmation that Play d'eau's fins are 6 sqft and can be upgraded to 7.5 sqft for better stabilisation in nasty seas. Just one question remains to be answered by ABT, and that's "As she is a Trunnion Bushing system I’d like the factory to consider and approve the fin increase" whatever that means.

 

[Zing]

But I’ve always wondered why has the ultimate workboat, the warship, never been translated to the leisure market? Perhaps the market is ready as it might explain the penchant for grey hulls nowadays

See setsail.com for the FPB. The Fast Patrol Boat. They changed the acronym definition now to something that suits their marketing, but there are plenty of warship design cues.

 

[jfm]

Right from taking delivery, there were slight oil leaks around the actuators on both sides. When investigated, I was advised they were from the header tanks' total loss oil supply, so nothing to worry about. Some years later, the port cylinder's piston seal failed. The cause was found to be that the yoke had not been fitted at the correct position on the actuator shaft thereby placing the piston at a slight angle to its cylinder, in turn placing pressure on the seal.

Two years later, the same happened on the stbd assembly.

How annoying was that? Initial incorrect fitting caused two costly repairs.

I agree with Mapism on the l/h and r/h thing. Mr golden arrow was talking cobblers and it is unarguable that the unhanded single cylinder is a cost cutting solution that is suboptimal from an engineering pov.

The rubbed-away seal thing you describe above wouldn't happen if ABT used spherical bearings (which are not sensitive to alignment angle) at the ends of the hydraulic ram, instead of cheaper straight bearings.

 

[Piers]

The rubbed-away seal thing you describe above wouldn't happen if ABT used spherical bearings (which are not sensitive to alignment angle) at the ends of the hydraulic ram, instead of cheaper straight bearings.

Thanks for this insight JFM. When ABT comes back with a quote, I'll ask the question re the bearings.

 

[jfm]

Just had confirmation that Play d'eau's fins are 6 sqft and can be upgraded to 7.5 sqft for better stabilisation in nasty seas. Just one question remains to be answered by ABT, and that's "As she is a Trunnion Bushing system I’d like the factory to consider and approve the fin increase" whatever that means.

As a guess, it sounds like he is referring to the hydraulic cylinder being head trunnion mounted, with the trunnion being at the "neck" (head) of the cylinder, right next to where the piston rod exits from the cylinder. Nothing odd about that, and if the bearing/bushing is ok then it can take bigger fins. But Trac also do a fin actuator with the cylinder mounted at the cap end. Lord knows why: it adds weight and an additional failure mode, etc.

There is nothing about trunnion/cap mounted cylinders per se that makes them stronger/weaker intrinsically, but perhaps it just so happens that Trac's trunnion mounted actuator is "lighter build" than their cap mounted actuator, and that is what is worrying him.

From a quick google image below is trac's actuator with the cylinder (oddly and inelegantly) mounted on a bearing at the cap end, using a U bracket thing, urgh:

and below is their actuator with the cylinder trunnion mounted at the head end:

 

[jfm]

Thanks for this insight JFM. When ABT comes back with a quote, I'll ask the question re the bearings.

There's perhaps nothing to ask: they use plain bearings not spherical, and you can't change that.

 

[Piers]

As a guess, it sounds like he is referring to the hydraulic cylinder being head trunnion mounted, with the trunnion being at the "neck" (head) of the cylinder, right next to where the piston rod exits from the cylinder. Nothing odd about that, and if the bearing/bushing is ok then it can take bigger fins. But Trac also do a fin actuator with the cylinder mounted at the cap end. Lord knows why: it adds weight and an additional failure mode, etc.

There is nothing about trunnion/cap mounted cylinders per se that makes them stronger/weaker intrinsically, but perhaps it just so happens that Trac's trunnion mounted actuator is "lighter build" than their cap mounted actuator, and that is what is worrying him.

Here's the exploded diagram of Play d'eau's cylinder and yoke: http://www.playdeau.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Stabilizer-Manual.pdf

Does this help?

 

[Portofino]

Here's the exploded diagram of Play d'eau's cylinder and yoke: http://www.playdeau.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Stabilizer-Manual.pdf

Does this help?

Looking @ that - the fact the cylinder is on a “ socket “ which rotates and the “ yoke “ rotates too( attached to the fin ) ,in my mind there’s should be no uneven wear / pressure on the piston cylinder seal caused by a fraction or otherwise of miss alignment in the horizontal plane ,due to the ball joint connecting the two .

Can,t determine from the pic how the alignment of the thing is in the vertical plane ?
The ball joint thing on the end of the cylinder ram may be able to compensate for any fraction of miss alignment?Its not clear .

How’s the ram fixed to the “ socket “ ?
I ,am wondering if there’s any room for vertical play / movement — if any — at all ?

Piers over your ownership have you lubricated any of those moving parts ?

 

[Nautical]

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, T.
I never bought the argument that the better residuals of LRMY are justified by their better construction before P boats took a big hit following the financial meltdown, but saying that nowadays is beyond a joke.
And also the better-everything in the construction is just another sweeping generalization.
It's a pity that due to Photobucket ransom the pics in this thread are not visible anymore (and I can't be bothered to re-publish them), but you can trust me if I tell you that I have yet to see anything built in Taiwan which could hold a candle to the joinery of that Canados.
And when I say anything, I mean it: Ta-shing built Nordies, Flemings, GBs, ORYs, Marlows, you name it.

The high second hand prices of these boats are only very partially justified by the technical components inside them (btw, with engines and transmissions, it's actually the other way round - and by a HUGE factor, particularly when compared with Nordies or other full D boats, but also with SD twin engine boats), nor the higher manpower cost can justify that (c'mon T, are you for real there? ), or their longevity (there's no reason on Earth why a good P boat can't last as much as any other good boat, if it weren't that on average they are more neglected than most LRMYs - see previous example, which is even, heaven forbid, wooden built!).

It's a market distortion, plain and simple. Demand and offer, nothing else.
The very same reason which is driving the prices of P boats, just the other way round.
Price of everything and value of nothing, yet again, springs to mind...

Well its s free world thank heavens and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

From an outsiders perspective I'd be interested to hear your reasoning why a SD heavyweight is 30 tons heavier than say a similar 24 m P hull production boat bearing in mind the engines and drive train in the SD are lighter / smaller . Where are they getting all that extra mass form from ? and why do they do that if there is no purpose to it if the P boat will last just as long, seems an odd thing to do and obviously must be hellishly more expensive to build a similar sized hull to those proportions when its not nessacary , looks like they are just throwing money away for the hell of it .

I would suggest comparing Canados as a representative of P hull boats is rather unfair , Canados were also very low volume , high quality "expensive" boats often custom built to owners requirements , what killed the previous incarnation was they never really kept up to date with their core market which was more blingy P hull Med market and they were also as others massively powered and big maintenance bills so when they get to 20 years old they are in a market price point where most don't have the sort of budgets to keep them well maintained or even run them hence the residuals fall of a cliff . A 22m LRMY with heavy dims but only two piddly 500 bhp engines is a far more appealing second hand proposition, you can service and maintain those motors relatively easy and not break the bank as opposed to V12 36 litre supercharged monsters . And other factors come in to play , some of those 20 / 25 year old massively powered P boats from Canados and their ilk are not what you would call these days aesthethically pleasing, certainly very old school early 90's genre with some er, lets say "interesting" interiors . Your 1990 LRMY doesn't look a hill of beans much different today against a new version and the interior yes looks old school but so it has for 40 years and will continue to do so till the thing is scrap and beyond .

It will be a hard job to persuade anyone that putting money into a new production P boat of say 2 million euro will be worth the same as a 2 million euro LRMY of the ilk of Nordy's , ORY's or Flemings in 20 years from now .

But don't get me wrong a 25 year old Canado's is amazing value , you can pick up a 72 for around 200,000 euro if you shop and haggle like hell , just pray those 5000 hour MAN 1200's don't go pop or unless you have deep pockets you'll be better off setting fire to it . You blow up your lugger 250 bhp , worst case its a full rebuild at around 60k inc install but chances are it will be still going when you me and grand kids are dead.

If it were me looking for cheap med boating on a budget and biggest bang for buck I would buy a older Canados or similar , budget on my $250k as dead money, enjoy the hell out of it and if a motor goes kaboom just park it up and leave it or give it away and go buy another one.

Quality of joinery, I ll agree Canados built some very high quality interiors but I wouldn't say any better than many of the Taiwan yards , obviously there is good and bad both sides of the divide , I ve seen some shocking Taiwan builds (not surprizing they are no longer around) but equally I ve seen horrendous cheap as chips interiors on some Italian product , fire wood after about ten years . In general though the long standing yards in Taiwan build very good quality and usually all solid carcasses and solid wood jointing, corners and bullnoses , the stuff that never really wears out just gets a really nice patina to it . And they can build some absolutely stunning interiors , Jade in particular I visited recently and the yard owners 95 its in a different world to 95% of anything else, the detail and marquetry and book matching is stunning , not to mention the inlaid marble floors and hand etched glass etc .

But I guess the best opinion and unbiased comes from Surveyors that do the pre sale contract surveys on 20 / 25 year old stuff, ask them what's their opinion and I'll warrant most of them will say bar some exceptions more often than not the 25 year old LRMY from the major yards does far better through survey than a 25 year old P hull production boat . Not always but in general there is a difference.

And then there is just plain old "desirability" , some products just have a stronger following than others and that can be for a myriad of reasons , historical, loyalty, reputation , service or just well it still looks a lovely looking thing.

 

[jfm]

Here's the exploded diagram of Play d'eau's cylinder and yoke: http://www.playdeau.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Stabilizer-Manual.pdf

Does this help?

It confirms your cylinder is trunnion mounted (trunnion at head end). That doesn't itself explain why a 7.5sqm fin is in any doubt as an upgrade.

Porto mentions ball joints (spherical bearings). From that picture, I do not see that the rod end has a spherical bearing. It might have a spherical bearing but I just can't see it. What you can see is plenty of opportunity for the assembler to create vertical misalignment, thus causing the seal failure that you suffered both sides. Also you can see these opportunities in the install manual http://www.goldenarrow.co.uk/marine...blizerInstallation v6.0 20140311_Released.pdf. Unlike Trac, Sleipner (and perhaps others) don't have any of this assembly done by the installer; the actuator is all preassembled at factory with no possibility for boat yard installer error.

Here is Sleipner actuator being installed - installer just makes hole in hull, lowers in the fully factory assembled actuator, and bolts through the hull (onto a big polo mint shaped plate on the hull bottom), then connects the hoses, then done. It's a pretty different install compared with ABT Trac.

 

[Portofino]

It confirms your cylinder is trunnion mounted (trunnion at head end). That doesn't itself explain why a 7.5sqm fin is in any doubt as an upgrade.

Porto mentions ball joints (spherical bearings). From that picture, I do not see that the rod end has a spherical bearing. It might have a spherical bearing but I just can't see it.

Track rod end maybe better terminology?
If that stiffens up or ends up miss aligned ,in the vertical then , somthings gotta give so to speak .
Although an actual ball joint would correct any miss alignment in all planes

Are they ( let’s call them track rod ends ? ) serviceable items , ie X hours or Y years replace ?
Or just fit n forget until breakdown ,in this case a leaky ram seal?

Certainly appreciate with rams ideally one requires zero lateral forces ,in the interest of seal life -
in and out only if poss ?

 

[Piers]

Piers over your ownership have you lubricated any of those moving parts ?

The manual specifically says not to lubricate the swivel (trunnion) sice it comes pre-lubed.

 

[Portofino]

The manual specifically says not to lubricate the swivel (trunnion) sice it comes pre-lubed.

Yeh @ instal , but years later if it’s ability to float vertically due to stiffening up then undue forces may come into play on the ram seals .In the Horizontal plane if the “ track rod “ flat bearing stiffens up then that may during rotation momentarily exhert a lateral force on the seal .

In the interest of seal longevity- -
The ram (s) either needs to be aligned millimetrically @ the factory like the pic of JFMs Sleipners , Or be able to float somehow to line up like yours .
The problem with that is if something ( one of the joints ) stiffens up ,or boths then it may as said momentarily place uneven lateral forces on the rubber seals .

Any how new seals arn,t a dear do if you have the tools and know how ?
I watched a DIYer in the yard replace the ram seals in his Arnesons , 4 in all .
He does it as part of his annual ,rather than wait for a leak .Although this not an alignment issue ,or thought not to be as the bearings are greased ,it’s was more of an abrasion issue - growth etc on the rods during the season .
Having said that the Arnesons rams did seem specifically designed for ease of seal change out , they come apart real easy .
5/6 little hex nuts and the end cap comes off and a big spanner twist later - from memory 3 rubber o rings @ beer money, reassemble and you are done .Messy time consuming part is refilling and bleeding the hydraulic fluid .

Where as those stabiliser rams may be not so user friendly? - throw away part ?