Flawed argument?

rotrax said:
I managed the exercises with her but took copies and subsequently asked two club members who are RYA theory instructors what they thought of it at DS level. Both said it was aiming too high for DS theory. The course members spoke with the instructor who admitted that it was the first DS level theory course he had run. He always did YM but not have enough candidates that year. The whole feel of the course changed after the discussion with the instructor and it became enjoyable. The misguided instructor could have put a dozen or more off further training by setting the bar at the level he was used to, not the one the trainee's needed. He later admitted, at the course end that untill it was bought to his attention he had not even read the DS sylabus! All's well that ends well. but it could have soured the training experience forever.
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I can relate to that experience, as an instructor. It isn't easy to clearly define the line between DS and YM theory and the RYA dont do a good job of specifying where each course starts and stops. It's very easy when teaching DS to drift into YM territory.

However I cannot understand a teacher struggling with any of it - the content of both courses isnt remotely O level let alone anything higher. The only person I ever had struggle and fail at DS was a 65 year old retired hospital sister who was so mathematically challenged that she could only do the rule of 12ths if the tide data was in feet. Even a fellow instructor who was a full time remedial teacher could not get through to this woman.

It used to be the case that the school principal had to be a YM and he could use anyone to teach but now the RYA allow anyone to be principal but the teachers must be YMs
 
Bosun Higgs said:
I can relate to that experience, as an instructor. It isn't easy to clearly define the line between DS and YM theory and the RYA dont do a good job of specifying where each course starts and stops. It's very easy when teaching DS to drift into YM territory.

However I cannot understand a teacher struggling with any of it - the content of both courses isnt remotely O level let alone anything higher. The only person I ever had struggle and fail at DS was a 65 year old retired hospital sister who was so mathematically challenged that she could only do the rule of 12ths if the tide data was in feet. Even a fellow instructor who was a full time remedial teacher could not get through to this woman.

It used to be the case that the school principal had to be a YM and he could use anyone to teach but now the RYA allow anyone to be principal but the teachers must be YMs
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As I mentioned in my origional post, the whole group were struggling and three left after only a few weeks. To be fair It took me a while to get my head around the homework which was a calculation involving tide from one direction, wind from another, leeway and boat speed. IIRC the question was what course to steer taking the given factors to make a tidal gate by a certain time. I was able to do it by refering to a different textbook to the one our friend was using. It was an elderly RYA YM textbook.
 
Digbydog said:
I am very much hoping that they would go hand in hand. As I said earlier this will be difficult for the newcomer but it is to be hoped that the experience will gain the qualifications. Perhaps the RYA could re-think their courses and work more closely with the insurers.
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Experience = time on the water
Qualifications = time on courses

These are not in any way linked, but rather completely independant. I will accept that time on courses may make time on the water more productive as one SHOULD be starting with a safe way of doing things.

Incidentally I have no qualifications at all but many years of coastal cruising experience but no long passages (ie over 24 hours) as it is not what my family choose to do & my insurers do not wish to cover me for solo overnight passages. I suspect I could get cover if I wanted it, but not yet had a need to ask.

I did do the RYA YM correspondence course using a library book & self marked, so that I understood the syllabus, but I prefer to use less pedantic & mathematical methods for daily cruising as tides, bearings, courses steered & boat behaviour are not really all that accurately predictable. I find that my rule of thumb is close enough for Jazz.
 
rotrax said:
I got the idea that the instructor at the evening class was "Winging it" as the practice charts supplied were of the Southern Hemisphere. The students were not given packs but were given a list of books and equipment to purchase, some of which were available from the instructor. He admited not reading the DS sylabus so was unaware of the required course content to be covered. I have no personal experience of RYA theory courses as First Mate and I swotted at home. Our friend was very distressed- she really wanted to progress with her new passion but found the expected level required was more than she-and most others -could cope with at the level they were at. I believe the college had written complaint from the three that left and no longer employ the instructor or run RYA courses. That, of course may be due to the cutback in adult education grants.
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Good.

Can't run a course without prep first, particularly if done for the first time, bloody incompetant & unfair to students.
 
Searush said:
Experience = time on the water
Qualifications = time on courses

These are not in any way linked, but rather completely independant. I will accept that time on courses may make time on the water more productive as one SHOULD be starting with a safe way of doing things.

Incidentally I have no qualifications at all but many years of coastal cruising experience but no long passages (ie over 24 hours) as it is not what my family choose to do & my insurers do not wish to cover me for solo overnight passages. I suspect I could get cover if I wanted it, but not yet had a need to ask.

I did do the RYA YM correspondence course using a library book & self marked, so that I understood the syllabus, but I prefer to use less pedantic & mathematical methods for daily cruising as tides, bearings, courses steered & boat behaviour are not really all that accurately predictable. I find that my rule of thumb is close enough for Jazz.
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"Experience = time on the water"?

Can't entirely agree.

Experience = time on the water, but actually actively involved with what is happening + learning from it.

Just sitting as a 'passenger' whilst it all happens = a sore arse!

Same thing with sea miles.
The YM 2,500 tidal, can be achieved easily, without any real input, even on a trip from the Canaries to Carib for example, if your only reading a book & getting a suntan.

Its all about what you put into an endeavour, not simply time spent.
 
It's a while since I bothered about such things - Searush I agree, trying to calculate tides to the inch is always going to end in tears, and I only did ymo as someone else was paying, though must say on that basis it was very enjoyable - but I thought the ' qualifying experience mileage' was for time spent In Command, not sunbathing ?

I still have a chart with a cross marked by a keen sunbathing crew, with the note " Captain steered under cloud here "...
 
>I was trying to say firstly that insurers set relative premiums based on the likelihood of claims.

When we first insured the boat with Pantaenius I found it interesting that they asked for our experience with no mention of qualifications. With the fast track Yachtmaster qualification I can see why.
 
KellysEye said:
>I was trying to say firstly that insurers set relative premiums based on the likelihood of claims.

When we first insured the boat with Pantaenius I found it interesting that they asked for our experience with no mention of qualifications. With the fast track Yachtmaster qualification I can see why.
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Can you explain what you mean by that statement?
 
Tranona,

I can explain that from my personal point of view.

When I did my ym offshore in 1992, it quickly became apparent that I was far more experienced than my fellow students; this wasn't because I'm so brilliant, simply I was the only one who'd owned a boat for a while, the others had sailed on other peoples' boats.

It did show particularly when it came to boat handling, though I suspect my time in dinghies helped me a lot.

I just have to say I disagree with 'fast track yachtmasters', pretty much a contradiction in terms; I suppose it's a bit like the driving test, first one learns to pass that, then one learns how to drive; but we're used to the idea that 'yachtmasters' know one end from the other, rather than being parachuted into the position by force-feeding.

It's inconvenient, but I do think there is simply no substitute for experience.
 
Seajet said:
[/I][/B]while I've quite fancied owning a machine gun at various times when people have thumped into my boat, surely one needs to be qualified not just licensed to own a serious gun ?
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Not AFAIK. My understanding is that all you need is a licence but that there is no qualification for getting one. Plod will issue the licence so long as they are happy that you are not going to start pointing it at people and you have the appropriate storage arrangements.

I'm not sure that anyone is allowed to have a machine gun though. But I do agree that one would be a useful jet ski deterrent!
 
KellysEye said:
>diving for example which does not require qualifications.

Diving does require a licence PADI or BSAC, skydiving also requires an licence FAI with levels A to D.
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jumping from an aeroplane in most countries requires an exemption from the law that prohibits dropping anything from an aircraft. Because, in the UK, the British Parachute Association (BPA) are seen as the controlling body, it appears that you need their qualifications that will allow you to apply for FAI license.

But just like with the RYA you can do it on your own (as an ex-BPA instructor I would not encourage anyone to do this!)
 
Experience = time on the water
Qualifications = time on courses Quoted bt Searush

Perhaps time on the water could lead to qualifications. I do not feel any great need for my YM ticket. I have sailed for over 50 years. BUT I did feel a sense of achievement when I was told that I had passed.
 
I spent over 12 years as a trainer in large IBM mainframe software systems.

It is absolutely true that experience is by far the best teacher, bar none. The trouble is it tends to come with expensive bills.

Training is accelerated experience. It's far from perfect but it's cheaper and usually safer than the real thing.

Some people gain experience quickly whilst others need regular reinforcement. There is no "one size fits all". Everything in life is a compromise.

To get back to the OP, government legislation has to cater for the worst case and that means that everyone should receive a bare minimum of "accelerated experience". Some will need more, others will be better off on their own.

So I don't think the argument is flawed. A "boaters driving license" means that everyone has had the most basic and necessary experience. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
 
little_roundtop said:
To get back to the OP, government legislation has to cater for the worst case and that means that everyone should receive a bare minimum of "accelerated experience". Some will need more, others will be better off on their own.

So I don't think the argument is flawed. A "boaters driving license" means that everyone has had the most basic and necessary experience. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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Sounds reasonable enough, but where is the problem?

Not a lot of data on google and this is quite old now but does seem to sum up the situation. There is no problem to fix.

But James Stevens, training manager for the Royal Yachting Association, said according to the marine accident rate, the UK had a better safety record than many European countries where legislation is in place.

"Very few people take to the sea without any training, they're actually quite sensible. They understand they are not just putting themselves at risk but the investment in their boat.

"They know the sea's dangerous and they don't really need the government to tell them."

The Ministry of Transport told the programme there were no plans for legislation.

For the size of the UK population, it said accident rates appeared low, but the Marine and Coastguard Agency is continuing research to quantify risks.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5207770.stm
 
Bosun Higgs said:
I can relate to that experience, as an instructor. It isn't easy to clearly define the line between DS and YM theory and the RYA dont do a good job of specifying where each course starts and stops. It's very easy when teaching DS to drift into YM territory.

However I cannot understand a teacher struggling with any of it - the content of both courses isnt remotely O level let alone anything higher. The only person I ever had struggle and fail at DS was a 65 year old retired hospital sister who was so mathematically challenged that she could only do the rule of 12ths if the tide data was in feet. Even a fellow instructor who was a full time remedial teacher could not get through to this woman.

It used to be the case that the school principal had to be a YM and he could use anyone to teach but now the RYA allow anyone to be principal but the teachers must be YMs
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When you look at the wide spread of courses offered by LEAs, you would not expect a principal to be the equivalent of YM in absolutely every subject covered, so doubt if this has ever been a requirement. The focus is mainly on the qualifications for staff running the courses and in the past, they did not even need to be YM.

Sea schools running practical courses are managed in a different way. The Principal must be YMI, but for a larger organisation, a chief instructor can be appointed who must be YMI qualified.
 
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