Flawed argument?

[Bosun Higgs]

I'm struggling to think of any sports, other than flying (Is flying a "Sport"?), which require qualifications. AFAIK unless you are on the public highway you don't even need a qualification for driving.

There are others - flying, motor racing, scuba - and they all have the same characteristics. Unlike ( say) athletics, they can be dangerous to the participant and they do require some mental skills / training. Others require licences - fishing and shooting for example.

But you do raise the interesting question of what is a sport. Is darts a sport? Or shooting? Or sailing? Are sports only activities that require physical fitness or athleticism? And what if the athleticism is on the part of an animal as in horse riding?

I was going to say that competition is the only common thread but even that isnt correct - where is the competition in some field sports?

 

[RupertW]

I have always believed that qualifications should be insurance driven and should be based on proven experience. Difficult for the new comer to the sport but it would prompt most people into gaining some qualification, if the insurance premium was set at 100% more and was discounted for every level of experience.

I think there's a good reason why insurance isn't based on qualifications, and that is because they have presumably found that it makes no difference to the claims that get made. They will happily gather extra information so they can make that judgement but my insurance didn't change at all from before and after I went from no quals to YM.

I wonder what would happen if they found that more claims came from qualified people than not - perhaps due to over-confidence. I suspect they wouldn't dare to say the premium is say £300 without any qualifications but £450 if you have Day Skipper.

 

[Seajet]

I think there's a good reason why insurance isn't based on qualifications, and that is because they have presumably found that it makes no difference to the claims that get made. They will happily gather extra information so they can make that judgement but my insurance didn't change at all from before and after I went from no quals to YM.

I wonder what would happen if they found that more claims came from qualified people than not - perhaps due to over-confidence. I suspect they wouldn't dare to say the premium is say £300 without any qualifications but £450 if you have Day Skipper.

RupertW,

If one's gone to a good sailing school the last thing one will have is over-confidence; it's a way of highlighting the problems one faces, from MOB to navigation which while training to cope does not belittle them, and while I think I'm a reasonable sailor I was left in awe of my instructors & examiner !

 

[alant]

Alant,

I'm not sure what you mean ?

We had read books on navigation, and the effects of tides and compass variation are rather obvious common sense - ( so is leeway & surface drift though it didn't apply on early trips ), along with swinging a compass and noting deviation.

On our first cross Channel from Weymouth to Guernsey we got into thick - unforecast - fog just after the Channel Light Vessel, and as we could hear plenty of ships' engines we tacked to & fro in the Separation Zone until it cleared, keeping a very careful dead reckoning plot.

It worked out fine, though I admit we were a bit frazzled when we reached St Peter Port after 40 hours.

When I finally did the ym offshore 'nav 2' night school course, I think the main things I learned were secondary port tides, which I'd just estimated before ( and I still disagree strongly with those who expect to work out tides to an inch or two ), and morse code, of which all I remember now is 'U' - You are standing into danger which seems worth noting - and SOS !

On the practical course, the main thing I came away with was briefing and managing a relatively large crew of varying experience, not something I'd had to do in my normal sailing.

Not questioning your obvious experience, just not sure what you mean by 'nav 2' night school course.

 

[alant]

It was years ago - the chap was nearly in - if not already in - retirement age.
It was a theory course attended by adults - they should be able to make their own call as to the limit of their abilities .. ie, if they need coaching to get through the assessment then they should know they don't really know it ..

but yes - perhaps we should've said something to the RYA - certainly would've had he been our practical instructor - actually he would've been kicked off the boat!

Was he actually a practical instructor?

You don't need to be a YMI to teach shorebased corses (or even be commercially endorsed).

 

[Sybarite]

I'm struggling to think of any sports, other than flying (Is flying a "Sport"?), which require qualifications. AFAIK unless you are on the public highway you don't even need a qualification for driving.

I have just been reading a French air plane magazine and they were talking about Italy and the new taxes they were introducing for private aircraft, yachts and luxury cars. For a Cessna 182 the annual tax is about €3400. However any visiting plane which stays for more than 48 hours in Italy must also pay it.

Therein lies the danger if the same logic is applied to boats. At present it is a daily progressive (based on LOA) tax for visting yachtsmen.

However, Italy may set a precedent for other countries in these hard times. Therefore any form of obligatory registration in the UK would faciltate a decision to introduce a similar luxury tax.

UK yachtspeople should fight to ensure that this doesn't happen.

 

[Seajet]

Not questioning your obvious experience, just not sure what you mean by 'nav 2' night school course.

Alant,

it may well be different now but when I did the night school course on Nav' - about 1990 ish - there were 2 levels, 1 for novices and 2 for people who thought they were a touch experienced / seen it all !

 

[rotrax]

Was he actually a practical instructor?

You don't need to be a YMI to teach shorebased corses (or even be commercially endorsed).

A freind of First Mates attended and passed a DS theory course at a night school in the midlands. She is a teacher and is intelligent and at the time had sailed with us a couple of times and completed a CC practical course-which is how we met her. It would be difficult to find a more enthusiastic person embarking on sail training.I spoke to her on the 'phone- it was clear she was struggling but she said it was OK, just hard. A couple of weeks later she sailed with us for a long weekend. During the weekend she asked me to look at the homework that had been set. I asked how the other course members were getting on and she said that as far as she knew they were all struggling, and indeed three had left the course. I managed the exercises with her but took copies and subsequently asked two club members who are RYA theory instructors what they thought of it at DS level. Both said it was aiming too high for DS theory. The course members spoke with the instructor who admitted that it was the first DS level theory course he had run. He always did YM but not have enough candidates that year. The whole feel of the course changed after the discussion with the instructor and it became enjoyable. The misguided instructor could have put a dozen or more off further training by setting the bar at the level he was used to, not the one the trainee's needed. He later admitted, at the course end that untill it was bought to his attention he had not even read the DS sylabus! All's well that ends well. but it could have soured the training experience forever.

 

[alant]

Alant,

it may well be different now but when I did the night school course on Nav' - about 1990 ish - there were 2 levels, 1 for novices and 2 for people who thought they were a touch experienced / seen it all !

Ah!

I think I've got it!

 

[alant]

A freind of First Mates attended and passed a DS theory course at a night school in the midlands. She is a teacher and is intelligent and at the time had sailed with us a couple of times and completed a CC practical course-which is how we met her. It would be difficult to find a more enthusiastic person embarking on sail training.I spoke to her on the 'phone- it was clear she was struggling but she said it was OK, just hard. A couple of weeks later she sailed with us for a long weekend. During the weekend she asked me to look at the homework that had been set. I asked how the other course members were getting on and she said that as far as she knew they were all struggling, and indeed three had left the course. I managed the exercises with her but took copies and subsequently asked two club members who are RYA theory instructors what they thought of it at DS level. Both said it was aiming too high for DS theory. The course members spoke with the instructor who admitted that it was the first DS level theory course he had run. He always did YM but not have enough candidates that year. The whole feel of the course changed after the discussion with the instructor and it became enjoyable. The misguided instructor could have put a dozen or more off further training by setting the bar at the level he was used to, not the one the trainee's needed. He later admitted, at the course end that untill it was bought to his attention he had not even read the DS sylabus! All's well that ends well. but it could have soured the training experience forever.

But the 'Instructor' pack should match the pupil packs, so ensuring all are singing from the same hymnbook. Any 'homework', usually done using the stuff in these. You don't mix'n'match DS/YM unless appropriate to the capability of the class.

 

[Submariner!]

The mantra used by the RYA in the 1990’s was “educate not legislate” I doubt if the thinking as changed in the RYA as through the fees charged to sailing schools (plus the materials they sell), it’s a good cash cow for the RYA.
If legislation were to come in, it would be through the EU back door. I would imagine that we would adopt the ICC, which would be the lowest denominator. If that were to happen, it has been said that there would be a culture change in Sailing, and people would go for the ICC test and that would be the end of it.
I think the current system of different levels of course works well. People can work themselves all the way to Ocean, if they plan to sail the world, or just stick at Day Skipper if they just plan to potter about in a local creek.
The other back door is insurance. The requirement to be qualified is fairly established for a yacht charter (Day Skipper is not technically a qualification, but viewed as one). One scenario where licensing become may become a requirement is where insurance is made mandatory in the same way as it is for a car. Only takes the ABI to declare a minimum qualification and we have our compulsory licensing.
To take on a couple of other points made…….
1. Shore based instructors do not have to be CIs or YMIs, although the standard has really improved over the years. Back in the 1990s, I experienced a load of students doing their practical courses where I had to correct a lot of areas which were taught in error!

2. In over twenty years of teaching sailing, I do not recall never awarding a competent crew certificate, its often viewed that if you cannot get somebody through a CC course in five days, then the student is either being bloody minded and completely not interested or the instructor needs to take a long look at himself/herself. I have had a very small number who stepped ashore after a day or so as they could not handle seasickness or the communal living!

Day skippers and above, there has been a number of occasions when I have not awarded a certificate. The most common reason is that they are not ready for the course. Day skipper for example is very hands on, and I expect people to be already at Day Skipper Shorebased level (either through attending a course or self-study). In a classroom environment that takes 40 hours. So when somebody pitches up on a course and they do not know tides, nav, pilotage, IRPCS etc, I am normally putting the writing on the wall very early on in the course. If the student has booked a series of weekends, they often rescue the situation as they are briefed carefully. If it’s a five day course, then I will tick off the boxes I can, and then send them off to get up to speed on theory and ask them to come back for a weekend where we can top up the tide and nav bits where they were weak.

I am sure others will have a different “take”

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I have just been reading a French air plane magazine and they were talking about Italy and the new taxes they were introducing for private aircraft, yachts and luxury cars. For a Cessna 182 the annual tax is about €3400. However any visiting plane which stays for more than 48 hours in Italy must also pay it.

Therein lies the danger if the same logic is applied to boats. At present it is a daily progressive (based on LOA) tax for visting yachtsmen.

However, Italy may set a precedent for other countries in these hard times. Therefore any form of obligatory registration in the UK would faciltate a decision to introduce a similar luxury tax.

UK yachtspeople should fight to ensure that this doesn't happen.

I agree with what you are saying but it is a slightly different point.

The question was about needing qualifications to participate in a sport and, AFAIK you only need them to go flying or to drive on the public highway. All other qualifications seem to be arranged by various sports governing bodies rather than the law of the land. Sometimes those qualifications are obligatory, sometimes voluntary (as with boating)

A tax, such as a gun licence, is another matter as you get the go ahead simply by paying it rather than by qualification. I wholeheartedly agree that we don't need it for boating!

 

[Frankie-H]

I think there's a good reason why insurance isn't based on qualifications, and that is because they have presumably found that it makes no difference to the claims that get made. They will happily gather extra information so they can make that judgement but my insurance didn't change at all from before and after I went from no quals to YM.

I wonder what would happen if they found that more claims came from qualified people than not - perhaps due to over-confidence. I suspect they wouldn't dare to say the premium is say £300 without any qualifications but £450 if you have Day Skipper.

Exactly that is my point. Your premiums didn't change. Neither did mine. I believe that they should have. I can not agree with your precept that they would have more claims 'due to over confidence' from those with qualifications. Most of those people, who I know, respect their boats more with experience than without.

 

[KellysEye]

>diving for example which does not require qualifications.

Diving does require a licence PADI or BSAC, skydiving also requires an licence FAI with levels A to D.

 

[fireball]

Was he actually a practical instructor?

You don't need to be a YMI to teach shorebased corses (or even be commercially endorsed).

Dunno - one can only hope ...

 

[Seajet]

I agree with what you are saying but it is a slightly different point.

A tax, such as a gun licence, is another matter as you get the go ahead simply by paying it rather than by qualification. I wholeheartedly agree that we don't need it for boating!

Rigger Mortice,

while I've quite fancied owning a machine gun at various times when people have thumped into my boat, surely one needs to be qualified not just licensed to own a serious gun ?

If not, where do I get my anti-jetski & fast mobo M-16 with 203 grenade launcher ?!

Firearms and dealing with knobs or pirates could possibly be a subject for
'Yachtmaster advanced'...

 

[rotrax]

But the 'Instructor' pack should match the pupil packs, so ensuring all are singing from the same hymnbook. Any 'homework', usually done using the stuff in these. You don't mix'n'match DS/YM unless appropriate to the capability of the class.

I got the idea that the instructor at the evening class was "Winging it" as the practice charts supplied were of the Southern Hemisphere. The students were not given packs but were given a list of books and equipment to purchase, some of which were available from the instructor. He admited not reading the DS sylabus so was unaware of the required course content to be covered. I have no personal experience of RYA theory courses as First Mate and I swotted at home. Our friend was very distressed- she really wanted to progress with her new passion but found the expected level required was more than she-and most others -could cope with at the level they were at. I believe the college had written complaint from the three that left and no longer employ the instructor or run RYA courses. That, of course may be due to the cutback in adult education grants.

 

[Lakesailor]

Exactly that is my point. Your premiums didn't change. Neither did mine. I believe that they should have. I can not agree with your precept that they would have more claims 'due to over confidence' from those with qualifications. Most of those people, who I know, respect their boats more with experience than without.

Are you equating experience with qualifications?

 

[RupertW]

Exactly that is my point. Your premiums didn't change. Neither did mine. I believe that they should have. I can not agree with your precept that they would have more claims 'due to over confidence' from those with qualifications. Most of those people, who I know, respect their boats more with experience than without.

Wow - I must have been a lot less clear than I meant as you missed both my points.

I was trying to say firstly that insurers set relative premiums based on the likelihood of claims. If a particular fact makes no difference to the claim rate then they have no reason to charge a different rate. Therefore it doesn't mean anything if you or I said they "should" change it for qualifications. As they haven't changed the premium that shows that the qualification does not reduce accident rates.

I then wondered what they would do IF they found the connection was the other way round - I certainly didn't statas that qualifacations make you more likely to claim as I have no idea.

Finally I may have misunderstood your final statement about people with more experience respecting their boats more than those without. I completely agree with that but I'm comparing those who've got qualifications but little experience with those who have learnt by experience.

 

[Seajet]

I did get a very slightly reduced rate on a marine mortgage through Lombard, and St Margarets insurance for my Carter 30 - about £14,000 in 1987, because I was then a member of the RYA.

Those deals are long gone, and I've never had a penny off for being ym offshore.

I suspect having such qualifications may possibly be of use if involved in an accident, or more likely when I'm arguing at the club bar !