Flawed argument?

[Deleted member 36384]

Which leads me to ask if anyone has ever failed a CC or DS course?

They are course completion certificates. For the certificate to be issued the candidate must have demonstrated competency in each of the syllabus elements. For example a crew that is debilitated with sea sickness will not be awarded a Competent Crew certificate. If they just can not steer yacht upwind as they have zero skills to master this, then they are not awarded. Its much easier to not award a day skipper certificate.

Personally, I would estimate around 10 persons have not received a Course Completion Certificate from me from Competent Crew through to Coastal Skipper.

The RYA has guidance notes for instructors to help when deciding if a candidate should not be awarded a course completion certificate. It also includes some advice on how this should be presented to the candidate in a positive manner that presents an opportunity for them to improve their skills e.g. debrief, advice and guidance on resources (dinghy sailing, shore based course, club sailing).

 

[Deleted member 36384]

....... I and chum did the level 2 yachtmaster offshore night school element just to see if we'd missed anything; we hadn't.

I wouldn't have bothered with the YM offshore practical if I hadn't been able to wangle it out of BAe when I took voluntary redundancy, but I learned a lot - I was supremeley lucky with ace instructors; ....

Perhaps you didn't know as much as you thought on the subjects. Something I have experience of and been been guilty as charged.

 

[alant]

I'd sailed across the Channel with an ex school chum from 17 ( we had both been sailing dinghies & other peoples cuisers since say 10 ) , in those days the only external nav aid was the rather 'keep a sense of humour' RDF.

We managed fine, by being bloody careful.

I and chum did the level 2 yachtmaster offshore night school element just to see if we'd missed anything; we hadn't.

I wouldn't have bothered with the YM offshore practical if I hadn't been able to wangle it out of BAe when I took voluntary redundancy, but I learned a lot - I was supremeley lucky with ace instructors;

Top Tip ! - do sailing courses in the winter as you'll get the best instructors and fellow students will be serious, not just out for a sun tan.

Do check out sailing schools first; largest with the most PR is NOT best, ask on these forums for up to date advice !

Andy

"I and chum did the level 2 yachtmaster offshore night school element just to see if we'd missed anything; we hadn't."

Wassat then?

 

[alant]

Which leads me to ask if anyone has ever failed a CC or DS course?

Yes!

 

[alant]

On YBW I very often hear the logic that if we all go out and get qualifications in sailing then the government will be less likely to legislate to force us to get qualified.

Is this flawed logic?

If (say) 90pc of us had formal qualifications it would be a small matter for the government to say "As of now, by law, the 10 per cent miniority must follow 'best practice' within the sport and get qualified.".

If only 1pc of us had formal qualifications in sailing it would surely be much harder for them to argue it should be essential for the other 99pc of us?

No other sport I'm involved in applies this logic, in spite of far greater injury rates and far greater potential for tax revenue and easier enforcement.

Discuss.

Over my lifetime to date, I've never seen the evidence that the government see Sailing as a good thing to legally require qualifications for, and if they did we'd probably all get Grandad rights, but that's a different point. (Small 'cos that distracts from the point I'd like people to comment upon.)

On the basis that much of our eastern seaboard, was successfully bumped into by Viking types on a booze cruise, who had no qualifications, then there is no reason perhaps to have any. Since communication was limited, those lost in this endeavour is unknown, Grace Darling yet to be born.

However, they had little chance of bumping into a 300m containership or countless other small vessels plying their way in congested waters. So perhaps some knowledge of the Collision regs etc, might be a basic requirement, even legally.

Ocean sailors can be exempted, since there's little to avoid out there.

PS
Why are some posts on here with tiny fonts?

 

[Seajet]

"I and chum did the level 2 yachtmaster offshore night school element just to see if we'd missed anything; we hadn't."

Wassat then?

Alant,

I'm not sure what you mean ?

We had read books on navigation, and the effects of tides and compass variation are rather obvious common sense - ( so is leeway & surface drift though it didn't apply on early trips ), along with swinging a compass and noting deviation.

On our first cross Channel from Weymouth to Guernsey we got into thick - unforecast - fog just after the Channel Light Vessel, and as we could hear plenty of ships' engines we tacked to & fro in the Separation Zone until it cleared, keeping a very careful dead reckoning plot.

It worked out fine, though I admit we were a bit frazzled when we reached St Peter Port after 40 hours.

When I finally did the ym offshore 'nav 2' night school course, I think the main things I learned were secondary port tides, which I'd just estimated before ( and I still disagree strongly with those who expect to work out tides to an inch or two ), and morse code, of which all I remember now is 'U' - You are standing into danger which seems worth noting - and SOS !

On the practical course, the main thing I came away with was briefing and managing a relatively large crew of varying experience, not something I'd had to do in my normal sailing.

 

[ukmctc]

Training is flawed anyway, currently you pay you pass with the RYA and its training, if it becomes a legal requirement who will enforce and maintain trainers? it couldn't be the RYA, and the MCA is too busy. Some or the worst sailors I have seen and met are qualified via RYA or instructors, also some of the best I have ever seen have never been near the RYA or a sailing course, and honoured by the RYA for their abilities!

I remember an old saying which rings true today

" those who can do, those who can't, teach "

cat and pigeons come to mind.....

 

[flaming]

Some or the worst sailors I have seen and met are qualified via RYA or instructors, also some of the best I have ever seen have never been near the RYA or a sailing course, and honoured by the RYA for their abilities!

Equally the very best sailor I know, someone who has frequently been praised to the heavens on these forums, is a YMI and also a Yachtmaster examiner. I doubt there are any posters on these forums in her league, I know I'm not.

The very worst I have ever seen was of the "don't need any qualifications" brigade. A man who caused thousands of pounds of damage to moored boats, including the almost complete destruction of his neighbour's windvane, whilst trying to extricate himself from his berth in a flat calm and who then poured scorn on the RYA courses, very similar to some of that expressed in this thread, when it was politely suggested to him that he might benefit from some tuition. The restraint demonstrated by the gentleman doing the suggesting - the same gentleman who had just had his windvane totaled - bordered on the saintly.

Not that either case is an argument for training on their own. But lets not allow generalisations to run away with us eh?

 

[VO5]

Well, my view is that the core of the thing is about education.
You have to consider the skipper must develop multiple skills.
The only way to acquire these is through experience backed by knowledge.
The acquisition of the knowledge is the key, and again because there is so much linkage between all the topics probably the best way to approach the problem is holistically, embracing all the topics in group form and progressing them as a cluster.

 

[Talulah]

I remember an old saying which rings true today
" those who can do, those who can't, teach "

And those that cannot teach manage.
And those that cannot manage consult.

And those that cannot teach, teach teachers

And those that cannot teach, teach gym

Anybody who sincerely thinks the original is true probably doesn't know anything worth teaching.

 

[VO5]

And those that cannot teach manage.
And those that cannot manage consult.

And those that cannot teach, teach teachers

And those that cannot teach, teach gym

Anybody who sincerely thinks the original is true probably doesn't know anything worth teaching.

Very Good !

....And additionally, probably is unworthy of being taught anything.

 

[Seajet]

Equally the very best sailor I know, someone who has frequently been praised to the heavens on these forums, is a YMI and also a Yachtmaster examiner. I doubt there are any posters on these forums in her league, I know I'm not.

The very worst I have ever seen was of the "don't need any qualifications" brigade. A man who caused thousands of pounds of damage to moored boats, including the almost complete destruction of his neighbour's windvane, whilst trying to extricate himself from his berth in a flat calm and who then poured scorn on the RYA courses, very similar to some of that expressed in this thread, when it was politely suggested to him that he might benefit from some tuition. The restraint demonstrated by the gentleman doing the suggesting - the same gentleman who had just had his windvane totaled - bordered on the saintly.

Not that either case is an argument for training on their own. But lets not allow generalisations to run away with us eh?

Flaming,

too right !

when I did my ym course I did a 'refresher week' beforehand, and as the instructor developed a severe back problem I met 3 instructors ( Solent School of Yachting ).

So I was instructed by, in turn a square rigger skipper, a Master Mariner who'd commanded container ships, Rainbow Warrior and the Jersey lifeboat along with countless yachts, and a certain submariner No.1 who'd also sailed more boats than I've had hot dinners, including being in and coping with the 1979 Fastnet.

Our examiner had been on HMS Exeter at the Battle of The River Plate and every Fastnet since !

I quickly realised I will never be in their league, just hope a tiny fraction rubbed off.

I know I was supremely lucky and no doubt there's the odd idiot RYA instructor as in any field, I'm certainly not an avid RYA fan as it took uproar on these forums and the formation of BORG to get them off their transoms over the Studland MCZ issue, but I can't help thinking you have to be pretty good to qualify as 'Yachtmaster Instructor' !

 

[fireball]

but I can't help thinking you have to be pretty good to qualify as 'Yachtmaster Instructor' !

I know one that I wouldn't let on my tender - let alone take charge of it or any other vessel of mine. ...
Perhaps he's a good sailor - I don't know - I could only judge him by his theory teaching ability ... and some of the things he said were outright dangerous (as an ex-dinghy instructor I'm familiar with the RYA methodology)

 

[Frankie-H]

Good point toad_oftoadhall as sailing is not that dangerous either compared to motocross, winter climbing, skiing, diving for example which does not require qualifications.

You would be hard pressed to buy your equipment and get your bottles filled, not to mention go on any sort of diving holidays, without qualifications

 

[rotrax]

Which is why I believe that there should always be a degree of separation between training and assessment.

Not the same examiner and preferably not at the same time.

If trainers do it on a money-making basis, there is always a financial imperative to give the customer what he paid for.

First mate and I have a fellow club member as a mentor. He sails with us a couple of times a year. He has 50 years sailing experience and has covered in excess of 150k sea miles. He is a yachtmaster examiner and skippers tall ships with large crews. Over a meal and a glass of wine this topic has come up. He says his final judgement on a candidate may come down to " Would I be happy for my two daughters to be on a vessel skippered by this candidate" He has made this call a few times and says that among his peers it is not an unusual conclusion to come to.

 

[Seajet]

I know one that I wouldn't let on my tender - let alone take charge of it or any other vessel of mine. ...
Perhaps he's a good sailor - I don't know - I could only judge him by his theory teaching ability ... and some of the things he said were outright dangerous (as an ex-dinghy instructor I'm familiar with the RYA methodology)

Fireball,

I can only say judging from my experience I am very surprised; if this character is that bad, maybe he or she has suffered some sort of degrading illness, seriously ?

Just a vague thought, but if dangerous maybe something should be said to the RYA, anonymously if necessary ?

 

[fireball]

Fireball,

I can only say judging from my experience I am very surprised; if this character is that bad, maybe he or she has suffered some sort of degrading illness, seriously ?

Just a vague thought, but if dangerous maybe something should be said to the RYA, anonymously if necessary ?

It was years ago - the chap was nearly in - if not already in - retirement age.
It was a theory course attended by adults - they should be able to make their own call as to the limit of their abilities .. ie, if they need coaching to get through the assessment then they should know they don't really know it ..

but yes - perhaps we should've said something to the RYA - certainly would've had he been our practical instructor - actually he would've been kicked off the boat!

 

[Frankie-H]

I have always believed that qualifications should be insurance driven and should be based on proven experience. Difficult for the new comer to the sport but it would prompt most people into gaining some qualification, if the insurance premium was set at 100% more and was discounted for every level of experience.

I once met a French 'gentleman', who had purchased a powerful twin screw mobo. He played bumper boats for a while, mainly involving a friend's catamaran. I shouted at him and told him to go and practice on an empty bit of pontoon. That it was very dangerous and that his boat was not a toy. He managed to get back into his berth and came storming along the pontoon to my boat. I met him on the side deck and he grabbed my safety line and lept up to head butt me in the face. Not too serious but this did anoy me. I jumped down from the boat and he found that I was at least 1 ft taller than him and probably 25 lbs heavier. He then retreated and hid behind his wife for a while, dodging out either side of her to shout at me. This was so funny that I called him a little monkey, which did not ease his temper for some reason. The marina staff arrived and told him that his actions were not acceptable and he should take his boat and leave.

A few days later he approached the berths again. SWMBO ordered me not to get involved, so I just stood on the bow of our neighbour's boat with a large fender. Again he was seen to be walking down the pontoon towards us. This time he was carrying a bottle of champagne and 2 glasses. Very un French macho but he apologised profusely and agreed that it was not as easy as he had thought.

 

[prv]

You would be hard pressed to buy your equipment and get your bottles filled, not to mention go on any sort of diving holidays, without qualifications

Nobody ever asked to see any qualifications when I was buying diving stuff. When filling bottles, they checked the cylinder stamps but not my little blue book.

You're probably right about the overseas holidays and UK clubs, but they're not the only way of going diving.

(Agree with the general principle that divers generally see qualifications as mandatory in a way that sailors don't, though.)

Pete

 

[Seajet]

I do not agree that unqualified people should be penalised; I know plenty of very good sailors who haven't bothered with courses & exams.