Flawed argument?

toad_oftoadhall

toad_oftoadhall

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On YBW I very often hear the logic that if we all go out and get qualifications in sailing then the government will be less likely to legislate to force us to get qualified.

Is this flawed logic?

If (say) 90pc of us had formal qualifications it would be a small matter for the government to say "As of now, by law, the 10 per cent miniority must follow 'best practice' within the sport and get qualified.".

If only 1pc of us had formal qualifications in sailing it would surely be much harder for them to argue it should be essential for the other 99pc of us?

No other sport I'm involved in applies this logic, in spite of far greater injury rates and far greater potential for tax revenue and easier enforcement.

Discuss.

Over my lifetime to date, I've never seen the evidence that the government see Sailing as a good thing to legally require qualifications for, and if they did we'd probably all get Grandad rights, but that's a different point. (Small 'cos that distracts from the point I'd like people to comment upon.)
 
Good point toad_oftoadhall as sailing is not that dangerous either compared to motocross, winter climbing, skiing, diving for example which does not require qualifications.
 
I'm struggling to think of any sports, other than flying (Is flying a "Sport"?), which require qualifications. AFAIK unless you are on the public highway you don't even need a qualification for driving.
 
Rigged Mortimer, That's Rigger Mortice in non-auto-correct speak. Sorry! :)

Good point. I don't actually know the answer other than that the licence is issued by the Motor Sports Association who are a member of the FIA, so there may or may not be a legislative requirement for licensing behind it all.
 
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I'd sailed across the Channel with an ex school chum from 17 ( we had both been sailing dinghies & other peoples cuisers since say 10 ) , in those days the only external nav aid was the rather 'keep a sense of humour' RDF.

We managed fine, by being bloody careful.

I and chum did the level 2 yachtmaster offshore night school element just to see if we'd missed anything; we hadn't.

I wouldn't have bothered with the YM offshore practical if I hadn't been able to wangle it out of BAe when I took voluntary redundancy, but I learned a lot - I was supremeley lucky with ace instructors;

Top Tip ! - do sailing courses in the winter as you'll get the best instructors and fellow students will be serious, not just out for a sun tan.

Do check out sailing schools first; largest with the most PR is NOT best, ask on these forums for up to date advice !

Andy
 
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Rigger Mortice said:
I'm struggling to think of any sports, other than flying (Is flying a "Sport"?), which require qualifications. AFAIK unless you are on the public highway you don't even need a qualification for driving.
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Flying can be a sport. IIRC, my Boy'sOwn type books used to refer to Sport Flying and the word Sport was in the name of some light aircraft models.

There are professional flying sports, such as pylon racing.

When the aircraft occupy the same space as commercials, there is a need for qualifications.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
On YBW I very often hear the logic that if we all go out and get qualifications in sailing then the government will be less likely to legislate to force us to get qualified.

Is this flawed logic?
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Very probably yes. However, given that all (I cant think of any exceptions) the boating training available in the UK leisure market is based on the RYA syllabus it gives the RYA much greater legitimacy to claim to represent leisure boaters when they can say that xx% of participants in the sport have been through some part of thier programme.

Of the sports BlowingOldBoots quotes, I'm aware of training available in all but moto-cross. For climbing and diving in particular, the BMC and BSAC occupy much the same position as the RYA in relation to thier sport in the UK and equally offer a syllabus for training in it.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
If (say) 90pc of us had formal qualifications
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I wouldn't say that we're anywhere near 90% of us have formal qualifications - a lot of us hold certification of some sort .. which really doesn't convey any more than the holder was interested in the course and learning - and of course, managed to convince the instructor that they'd learnt enough ...
 
fireball said:
I wouldn't say that we're anywhere near 90% of us have formal qualifications - a lot of us hold certification of some sort .. which really doesn't convey any more than the holder was interested in the course and learning - and of course, managed to convince the instructor that they'd learnt enough ...
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Which leads me to ask if anyone has ever failed a CC or DS course?
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Yes, but is that a requirement of the sports own rules or a legislative requirement?
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Most Speed Events require a competion licence. In car racing a test is part of the requirement. I was for many years a licenced Speedway Instuctor and had to renew the licence each season. Training is available for most car and motorcycle diciplines, but not all require the trainer to be licenced. I have had training for rally driving, both tarmac and gravel-Great Fun!- and Drag racing where balancing the bike on gettaway was the aim. It is possible to get moto-cross training but not many trainers can get insurance cover at an affordable price to make it a goer. All of these are requirements of the sports, not the government.
 
Rigger Mortice said:
Which leads me to ask if anyone has ever failed a CC or DS course?
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During our DS Theory there were ppl being coached through the end of course test ... I didn't find out if they'd "passed" or not ... the course gave us what we needed - an understanding of where our limitations lay and what we needed to do to safely manage the navigation on the boat ...
Doing the YM theory was much better - the students were (mostly) capable sailors already and the theory was just practice ..

The DS practical was a confidence builder - we had own boat instruction so didn't get a chance to gauge anyone elses standards - but it was very much a participation course - no real testing ...

My conclusion is that until you get to the CS/YM stage (or whatever they're calling it these days) you cannot put a lot of reliance on the standard of the person. I'd actually be a little wary if someone pushed themselves forwards proudly stating they had DS .. not that you shouldn't do the course - but it is just a stepping stone in the long learning curve ...

If theory and practical tests were required I'd think they'd start at DS level - and the danger there is that ppl would start to consider that to be an end to their learning ...

oh - btw - no snobbery - I just did the YM theory - not done the CS or YM practical - so DS prac is my highest certification ...
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
On YBW I very often hear the logic that if we all go out and get qualifications in sailing then the government will be less likely to legislate to force us to get qualified.

Is this flawed logic?

If (say) 90pc of us had formal qualifications it would be a small matter for the government to say "As of now, by law, the 10 per cent miniority must follow 'best practice' within the sport and get qualified.".

If only 1pc of us had formal qualifications in sailing it would surely be much harder for them to argue it should be essential for the other 99pc of us?

No other sport I'm involved in applies this logic, in spite of far greater injury rates and far greater potential for tax revenue and easier enforcement.

Discuss.

Over my lifetime to date, I've never seen the evidence that the government see Sailing as a good thing to legally require qualifications for, and if they did we'd probably all get Grandad rights, but that's a different point. (Small 'cos that distracts from the point I'd like people to comment upon.)
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I think your logic is irrelevent, flawed or not. The UK has a very good safety record when it comes to sailing. Quite possibly due to the high level of training which already happens. Better, apparently, than other European countries with enforced training. There is no problem to fix so the government is not in the least bit interested.

It seems.
 
fireball said:
the holder was interested in the course and learning - and of course, managed to convince the instructor that they'd learnt enough ...
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Which is why I believe that there should always be a degree of separation between training and assessment.

Not the same examiner and preferably not at the same time.

If trainers do it on a money-making basis, there is always a financial imperative to give the customer what he paid for.
 
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