Flat battery

[vas]

when nobody is onboard, the only thing the charger does is "topping up" the battery's at very lo amp rate,
there is lots of scare mongering here on the forum about exploding battery's,
but I've never seen such a think happening with a pro quality device sa a Victron charger
leaving the charger on 24/7/365, that is what I do, and that is the best you can do,
all imho

Bart,

I beg to differ, when I bought MiToS it had (and still has...) a Victron Centaur 24V 60A and two banks
it also had 4 sealed 180Ah batteries in the service bank and two shot ones on the engine bank.
Anyway, I discarded the engine, kept the service ones and had the charger on shore power whilst in the hard doing the rebuilt.
One day arrived to find one of the four batteries having exploded producing a nice mess in the e/r...
So shit can happen, batteries were doing nothing except for the occasional led light used the odd evening while working

V.

 

[Portofino]

It all boils down to ( no pun intended) to the charger functionality and ultimately it’s reliability.
I have said this before chargers decay and drop out functionality over time ,
Would be nice if they where binary like a light bulb or a punctured tyre .........easy to spot it’s ready for replacement.

The top smart ones monitor how there juice is being accepted by the batt and are responsive to what they do .
ie if they feel necessary will rest the batt and maintain by a sort of intermittent programme as opposed to just stuff constantly charge ( albeit tiny if float ) in .
Temp sensors on the batts and the requirement of the chargers ECU to react to those is frankly old hat , yesterdays tech .

So I,am with Bart on this 24/7/365 .I know a few on here sing about Victron (sp?) stuff but the tech I used fits Dolphin products and retro fits this stuff for Sunseeker .
As long as it’s up to date and been tested recently any new ish BMW , Merc , Audi, Porsche will do it’s the older 10 + years that’s gonna give problems

 

[MapisM]

The top smart ones monitor how there juice is being accepted by the batt and are responsive to what they do .
ie if they feel necessary will rest the batt and maintain by a sort of intermittent programme as opposed to just stuff constantly charge ( albeit tiny if float ) in .
Temp sensors on the batts and the requirement of the chargers ECU to react to those is frankly old hat , yesterdays tech.

No way, PF.
A temp sensor can and should be connected also to the smartest chargers, and for good reasons.
Without it, chargers can only calibrate the current based on what the battery tells it from an electrical standpoint.
Therefore, if the battery bank is discharged and capable to take 100A, it does supply 100A.
But if the battery bank is hot for "external" reasons, like typically because placed inside an e/r (which depending on several factors can get pretty hot at times), it's a good idea to reduce the recharge rate regardless of how much the battery could take.
And this is what any half decent charger can and do handle, but based on the temp probe, not on electrical smartness, so to speak.

Btw, while I had an (excellent) Victron Multiplus inverter/charger on my old lady, on the DP I have a Dolphin 24V/100A charger.
OEM installed, back in 2004, and I must say that it still works just as well as the more modern Victron did (aside from being a charger-only unit).
In fact, it also has the usual 3 stages recharge, AND the temp sensor on top.
If your electrician who installs Doplhin equipment does not connect also their temp sensor, the only reason I can imagine is that his clients don't care - or possibly don't even know about it.
Surely not because it's "old hat"...!

 

[petem]

P, note that some Smart Chargers (like mine) have a temperature sensor built into the charger and will regulate charge current accordingly. This obviously isn't as good as a sensor attached to the battery but if the charger and batteries are in the same location (e.g. engine bay) then I guess it's a worthwhile feature.

 

[MapisM]

Yep, that's definitely better than nothing.
Mind, having said what I said in favour of the temp sensor, I don't think they are so relevant when the boat is unattended.
In fact, in that condition, by definition there is neither a problem of high e/r temperature, nor of batteries deeply discharged.
Which means that the charger works on float at all time, supplying just a few amps.

 

[Portofino]

No way, PF.
A temp sensor can and should be connected also to the smartest chargers, and for good reasons.
Without it, chargers can only calibrate the current based on what the battery tells it from an electrical standpoint.
Therefore, if the battery bank is discharged and capable to take 100A, it does supply 100A.
But if the battery bank is hot for "external" reasons, like typically because placed inside an e/r (which depending on several factors can get pretty hot at times), it's a good idea to reduce the recharge rate regardless of how much the battery could take.
And this is what any half decent charger can and do handle, but based on the temp probe, not on electrical smartness, so to speak.

Btw, while I had an (excellent) Victron Multiplus inverter/charger on my old lady, on the DP I have a Dolphin 24V/100A charger.
OEM installed, back in 2004, and I must say that it still works just as well as the more modern Victron did (aside from being a charger-only unit).
In fact, it also has the usual 3 stages recharge, AND the temp sensor on top.
If your electrician who installs Doplhin equipment does not connect also their temp sensor, the only reason I can imagine is that his clients don't care - or possibly don't even know about it.
Surely not because it's "old hat"...!

Really is old hat , there’s absolutely nothing wrong with carrier pigeons or really ever was it’s just tech has moved on .One needs to recognise that . If you feel happy using them fine by me .
In the classic car world where rarity plays a big part , where as in the boat world which this forum sits , who cares if a S/Skr Hat 74 or Benetti burns to a total loss because of a batt initiated fire = nobody you just pick up the insurance cheque and go on yet another boat buyers spee .

They ( classic irreplaceable) folks in the car world use battery conditioners that are smart enough not to explode the batts.
Outlined in my post .That safer tech is wholly and totally transferable into marine chargers .Bit like phones a 2019 I phone is better than a 2012 I phone .......chargers are no different in tech advancement rate .

I think you missed my point that chargers decay undetected ........so a faulty charger even with a “ old hat “ yesterday’s tech strap on bat heat sensor and it’s own internal heat sensor is no guarantee it won’t knackered or extend the life of the batts .

You are back to asking , picking the brains of guys who deal / fit theses as a there day job .

Anyhow time for you to feed your pigeons

 

[markc]

They ( classic irreplaceable) folks in the car world use battery conditioners that are smart enough not to explode the batts.

The first part may be true, the 2nd part is utter rubbish. I had a CTEK conditioner keeping one of Crewe's finest topped up, and I had 2 fire appliances with crew in full breathing gear round to rescue the car from my garage as the conditioner had boiled the battery dry and filled my house with explosive hydrogen sulphide gas which, according to them, could have got very messy. Smart chargers are not smart if they go wrong!

 

[MapisM]

You are back to asking , picking the brains of guys who deal / fit theses as a there day job.

With respect for that guy, do you really think he knows better than Dolphin, Victron, Mastervolt, Xantrex and God only knows how many other charger builders, who keep including what you call pigeon technology in their products?
Just because he retrofits S/skr and knows that chargers (obviously) work also without bothering to connect the temp sensor - which even comes in the box, for the best of these components?
Then again, if yourself and all those S/skr owners are happy, I am more than happy!

 

[MapisM]

the 2nd part is utter rubbish

That's still nothing, compared to.... "who cares if a S/Skr Hat 74 or Benetti burns to a total loss"?

 

[Portofino]

The first part may be true, the 2nd part is utter rubbish. I had a CTEK conditioner keeping one of Crewe's finest topped up, and I had 2 fire appliances with crew in full breathing gear round to rescue the car from my garage as the conditioner had boiled the battery dry and filled my house with explosive hydrogen sulphide gas which, according to them, could have got very messy. Smart chargers are not smart if they go wrong!

You are concurring what iam saying .......if you care to review the two posts I’ve posted .
Additionally C teck did go through a phase of well documented bad chargers and tbo although quite marketable they are definitely not or were not the best out there . exploding batts happened at the time to Marenellos finest too .....same C teck crap .
I don’t use Ctek stuff with my Crew or Marenello cars even though ( as with you ) they came as std equipped with the bumming cars !!
Sorry to hear you did use a check btw ,

 

[BartW]

Bart,

I beg to differ, when I bought MiToS it had (and still has...) a Victron Centaur 24V 60A and two banks
it also had 4 sealed 180Ah batteries in the service bank and two shot ones on the engine bank.
Anyway, I discarded the engine, kept the service ones and had the charger on shore power whilst in the hard doing the rebuilt.
One day arrived to find one of the four batteries having exploded producing a nice mess in the e/r...
So shit can happen, batteries were doing nothing except for the occasional led light used the odd evening while working

V.

well that is than the single exception that can happen to any rule

Centaur is a older model from Victron, of which I don't know much,
I also found out that it has had some revisions during its livetime,
from what year is your unit ?
(not sugesting you need to buy new )

I forgot to add some details to my statement, that I still keep:

If you have one of the latest modern chargers from ao Victron, or ...
in combination with healthy and not too old battery's,
and all correctly installed,
the risc for exploding battery's is very lo !

 

[BartW]

P, note that some Smart Chargers (like mine) have a temperature sensor built into the charger and will regulate charge current accordingly. This obviously isn't as good as a sensor attached to the battery but if the charger and batteries are in the same location (e.g. engine bay) then I guess it's a worthwhile feature.

Pete, I need to correct you here, I didn't find in the manual that the charge current is adjusted from this internal temp sensor, this is a feature that older units (sa Centauer) have, but afaik, none of the modern units,
the only thing that this "temp protection" does, is preventing the charger to break from overheating itsself;

in case the charger gets too hot, because of any reason (can be anythinl like too high ambient temp and not enough ventilation around the unit, or a short in the DC cabling, the unit will switch off itself.
so this temp protection is not directly connected with potential overheating the batt.

 

[vas]

well that is than the single exception that can happen to any rule

Centaur is a older model from Victron, of which I don't know much,
I also found out that it has had some revisions during its livetime,
from what year is your unit ?
(not sugesting you need to buy new )

I forgot to add some details to my statement, that I still keep:

If you have one of the latest modern chargers from ao Victron, or ...
in combination with healthy and not too old battery's,
and all correctly installed,
the risc for exploding battery's is very lo !

you are right Bart,

the guy I bought my solar panels and victron mppt has seen other cases where these old Centaur have boiled batteries, so he recons the Centaur is not a 24/7 charger.
Anyway, Centaur was last used when testing something a couple of months ago and before that back in 2018...
Solar is the main source of juice for my batteries and apparently the new kit from Victron are fine for 24/7 so I'm happy.
Problem now is that my Mobitronic 1000W inverter died spectacularly with a blown capacitor and replacing the two caps didn't bring it back to life so need a new one but reluctant to make the more expensive step for a quadro changer/inverter combo... I do remember you had two on sale but I'll probably stick to a 200euro standalone small inverter for my La pavoni and laptop charging needs

V.

 

[BartW]

The top smart ones monitor how there juice is being accepted by the batt and are responsive to what they do .
ie if they feel necessary will rest the batt and maintain by a sort of intermittent programme as opposed to just stuff constantly charge ( albeit tiny if float ) in .
Temp sensors on the batts and the requirement of the chargers ECU to react to those is frankly old hat , yesterdays tech .

PF I don't agree with the last paragraph in the quote above that a temp sensor is old technology,

battery temp is VERY important value in a complex setup,
whatever intelligent algorythm your charger has, it can never have a accurate indication of the batt temp, many other parameters play a role,
a sensor probe connected to the terminal of a old fashion lead battery, is the most accurate indication the charger can get of real battery temp.

There is a good reason why Victron recently developed a “smart battery sensor”, to be connected straight on the battery terminals with a short piece of wire,
sending accurate Voltage and temp value’s " ON the terminals" to the Victron controll network


@ Pete,
I don't think that your new (rather small ) charger, creates much risc of frying your battery's,
especially not when no loads are on and the charger is in "Storage" mode (a feature on this smart charger)

 

[Portofino]

PF I don't agree with the last paragraph in the quote above that a temp sensor is old technology,

battery temp is VERY important value in a complex setup,
whatever intelligent algorythm your charger has, it can never have a accurate indication of the batt temp, many other parameters play a role,
a sensor probe connected to the terminal of a old fashion lead battery, is the most accurate indication the charger can get of real battery temp.

There is a good reason why Victron recently developed a “smart battery sensor”, to be connected straight on the battery terminals with a short piece of wire,
sending accurate Voltage and temp value’s " ON the terminals" to the Victron controll network

Depends on the architecture of the CPU .
As said the really smart ones can prevent voltage overload and resulting boiling .
If it’s ( the charger CPU ) is not configured by RISC protocols then you are right the next best thing is a terminal sensor .

latest Dolphin chargers run RISC protocols in there CPU ,s written for battery protection, which prevent over charging and boiling off / explosion s etc .
It’s quite technical Tbo , but my son had a MSC in EEE .....Electrical , Electronic , Engineering .
What is RISC and CISC Architecture with Advantages and Disadvantages

As said life and tech moves on .

Theres in the field disadvantages of letting folks bolt on sensors on terminals or fit alternative temp sensors , like corrosion, incorrect placement etc .........so that was the driver I finding another way .

 

[Portofino]

The first part may be true, the 2nd part is utter rubbish. I had a CTEK conditioner keeping one of Crewe's finest topped up, and I had 2 fire appliances with crew in full breathing gear round to rescue the car from my garage as the conditioner had boiled the battery dry and filled my house with explosive hydrogen sulphide gas which, according to them, could have got very messy. Smart chargers are not smart if they go wrong!

What’s happened there with your CTECK is probably a corroded connector with lead to increase in resistance.
The ( low tech CTECK ) then just increasing the voltage to around 17 V should have been around 14 v .
Prolonged 17 v just boiled it off .
A temp sensor could have possibly helped if the charger was smart enough to cut the volts .Nobody fits bat temp sensors to cars anyhow .
As said ideally the thing should have responded to the increase in resistance by NOT upping the voltage .
But it could not .

Really smart charger that use RISC can.

 

[petem]

Pete, I need to correct you here, I didn't find in the manual that the charge current is adjusted from this internal temp sensor, this is a feature that older units (sa Centauer) have, but afaik, none of the modern units,
the only thing that this "temp protection" does, is preventing the charger to break from overheating itsself;

in case the charger gets too hot, because of any reason (can be anythinl like too high ambient temp and not enough ventilation around the unit, or a short in the DC cabling, the unit will switch off itself.
so this temp protection is not directly connected with potential overheating the batt.

Bart,

his is what I read in the charger manual...

Operating temp. range: -20 to 60°C (0 - 140°F) Rated output current up to 40°C, derate linearly to 20% at 60°C

I could have misunderstood it though!

But I agree, an onboard temperature sensor in the charger won't give nay protection from an overheating battery.

 

[petem]

It all boils down to ( no pun intended) to the charger functionality and ultimately it’s reliability.
I have said this before chargers decay and drop out functionality over time ,
Would be nice if they where binary like a light bulb or a punctured tyre .........easy to spot it’s ready for replacement.

The top smart ones monitor how there juice is being accepted by the batt and are responsive to what they do .
ie if they feel necessary will rest the batt and maintain by a sort of intermittent programme as opposed to just stuff constantly charge ( albeit tiny if float ) in .
Temp sensors on the batts and the requirement of the chargers ECU to react to those is frankly old hat , yesterdays tech .

The "top smart ones" (like mine) have 7 stage smart charging plus onboard temperature sensors plus the ability to connect to wireless temperature and voltage sensors on each battery.

 

[petem]

@ Pete,
I don't think that your new (rather small) charger, creates much risc of frying your battery's,
especially not when no loads are on and the charger is in "Storage" mode (a feature on this smart charger)

You're right Bart, I'm not concerned.

 

[BartW]

Bart,

his is what I read in the charger manual...

Operating temp. range: -20 to 60°C (0 - 140°F) Rated output current up to 40°C, derate linearly to 20% at 60°C

I could have misunderstood it though!

But I agree, an onboard temperature sensor in the charger won't give nay protection from an overheating battery.

good !
Every day I learn something new