flares

[Champagne Murphy]

I know this has been done to death over the years, but what are the current trends in flares?
New insurer says I can't have the out of date ones any more. Spoilsports.

 

[capnsensible]

I reckon the thing about flares is that they are kinda instantly recognisable to anyone, not just those boat inclined. So effective when you need help.

Like lots of other things they have a shelf life so not guaranteed to work as designed, after expiry. Anyone familiar with any explosives can tell you that, the chemical compounds break down with age. So good call by the insurers, you dont want to make matters worse should it ever happen you need one.

There is of course anecdotal evidence from Old Fred down the club who got his off the Mary Rose and never gave him a problem, but Im sure chemists know what they are about.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

I know this has been done to death over the years, but what are the current trends in flares?
New insurer says I can't have the out of date ones any more. Spoilsports.

I wonder if there is any evidence that your out-of-date flares are more likely to do harm than good? It sounds as though the insurers are making it up as they go along. I think it should be your decision, not theirs.

In my opinion having an extra flare or two on board, slightly out of date, is not very risky at all, but *not* having a flare to use ( eg when a ship is steaming away from you) might well be!

Yes I am aware there has been one well-publicised serious injury, allegedly caused by the flare going wrong due to excess age. Yes explosives decompose, but not very quickly (look at the concerns over the wreck off Sheerness etc).
I wonder how many lives have been saved by OOD pyros, which raised the alarm, quite a few I'm willing to bet.

I personally used an OOD red hand flare (2 yrs over the limit) this summer, it worked and attracted attention ( just a tow in that situation.) Actually I told one of my crew to do it.
I knew there was a one in a million chance of the flare going wrong (in a dangerous way, rather than going phut, or a pale red not bright red etc)
but there was 90% probability of the boat going on some rocks and incurring serious damage or sinking.

So I think your insurers are seriously misguided, and I hope the crazy notion doesn't spread through the industry, but it probably will...

 

[capnsensible]

I wonder if there is any evidence that your out-of-date flares are more likely to do harm than good? It sounds as though the insurers are making it up as they go along. I think it should be your decision, not theirs.

In my opinion having an extra flare or two on board, slightly out of date, is not very risky at all, but *not* having a flare to use ( eg when a ship is steaming away from you) might well be!

Would you eat an out of date pork pie? Or feed one to your Gran?

Stuff goes 'off'. Thats it.

 

[Tamar]

At midnight on the expiry day, do the flare suddenly become a hazard? I think not. As soon as non pyro flares are recognised by insurance company the better

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Would you eat an out of date pork pie? Or feed one to your Gran?

Stuff goes 'off'. Thats it.

I've just edited my post to add a bit on this subject. (Not the pork pie or gran)

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

At midnight on the expiry day, do the flare suddenly become a hazard? I think not. As soon as non pyro flares are recognised by insurance company the better

I didn't know they weren't, maybe they are ill- informed, or maybe the electric pseudo-flares are genuinely not so likely to help.

 

[capnsensible]

I've just edited my post to add a bit on this subject. (Not the pork pie or gran)

Yup, understand what you are saying but its risk risk risk......and luck. You have had an experience and it worked. The guys who made it know not to do that and the Insurance companies understand and apply the rules.

Would you charter a boat with out of date flares, even if it was last week? (Coded boats get fined for that) Would any of us want to fly on an airliner out of date for anything?

Engineering depends on being reliable. Reliabilty depends on being in date for test. I trust that.

 

[capnsensible]

At midnight on the expiry day, do the flare suddenly become a hazard? I think not. As soon as non pyro flares are recognised by insurance company the better

Its worth recognising that the chemical compounds have been degrading, like pork pies, since they were made. So no, its not sudden, its progressive to the point at which the working guarantee expires.

 

[Deleted member 478]

Would you eat an out of date pork pie?

I'd risk feeding one to you, all in the interests of a day or two of peace and quiet.

 

[capnsensible]

I'd risk feeding one to you, all in the interests of a day or two of peace and quiet.

You do know that the flares they are talking about arent from your wardrobe?

 

[MoodySabre]

Get rid of them. DSC radio, a PLB (or an EPIRB) a huge torch and an electronic signalling device if you must. IMO flares are dangerous items that are deployed by untrained persons in moments of stress. In the middle of the North Sea I am possibly out of VHF range to a shore station but not a DSC receiver on another vessel and no ships may be near enough to see a flare, particulary in daylight. A PLB will get the message across if DSC can't.
The main benefit of an Odeo or similar is help rescue vessel spot you on approach. Admittedly they don't give a 'copter any info about wind like a smoke might but that's a small matter IMO.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

Get rid of them. DSC radio, a PLB (or an EPIRB) a huge torch and an electronic signalling device if you must. IMO flares are dangerous items that are deployed by untrained persons in moments of stress. In the middle of the North Sea I am possibly out of VHF range to a shore station but not a DSC receiver on another vessel and no ships may be near enough to see a flare, particulary in daylight. A PLB will get the message across if DSC can't.
The main benefit of an Odeo or similar is help rescue vessel spot you on approach. Admittedly they don't give a 'copter any info about wind like a smoke might but that's a small matter IMO.

DSC distress of course, plus PLB's and EPIRB's but the latter 2 aren't very likely to get a quick response.( I asked Falmouth MRCC and they said an hour before launching a lifeboat/helo, due to corroboration being needed, database searching etc. )
In what way are flares 'dangerous', compared to cooking at sea for example?
'Untrained persons'? You need to pull a handle and point the flare.
More training is needed to use a VHF or indeed, cook a meal at sea.
Everyone knows what a flare looks like, there's no doubt a vessel needs help. That is very much not the case with winking red LED's, torches etc.
Smoke and dye are very conspicuous in daylight, and from the air.
Each to his own, you keep your nice big torch, but I will stick to carrying enough red rockets to start WW3 !
By the way, a locker full of rockets is always popular with the crew :encouragement:

edited to add, I'm just disagreeing with you, not criticising.

 

[scottie]

The only time I have been in a situation that required it a used a red flare was very impressed with the result
It was seen further than the range of the hh radio and was 25 years ago so pre electronic alternatives

 

[Champagne Murphy]

So is there any rule/law that forces us to carry flares? And are those rules/laws different on the Continent?

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

So is there any rule/law that forces us to carry flares? And are those rules/laws different on the Continent?

No rule on UK flagged private yachts (up to 24 m long I believe?) But sometimes insurance company requirements can become mythical rules by cultural osmosis ( 10 year rig replacement for example).
And fair enough, if your yacht hit a box awash, and sank, and I was your insurance underwriter, it might cross my mind to ask why you didn't use flares to call for help after your radio went wrong, thus saving my company buying you another boat..

There must be MCA rules for small commercial sailing vessels?

Plenty of rules abroad..

The other one which always comes up is, can the French authorities fine UK flag yachts for OOD pyros?

 

[capnsensible]

The Small Commercial Vessel code of practice requires vessels to carry in date flares.

I no longer own or manage any commercial vessels but I keep my liveaboard boat up with stuff like that.

Most of the commercial Vessels I work on are MCA coded despite being based away from there but Spanish vessels Ive worked on have carried flares.

I have no problem with any of that! :encouragement:

 

[alan_d]

Yes I am aware there has been one well-publicised serious injury, allegedly caused by the flare going wrong due to excess age.

If you are referring to the Duncan Wells incident (2006), my understanding is that the flare involved was in-date but faulty. (But perhaps you were alluding to something different.)

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

If you are referring to the Duncan Wells incident (2006), my understanding is that the flare involved was in-date but faulty. (But perhaps you were alluding to something different.)

Yes my mistake, I was referring to Duncan Wells, thanks for putting me straight.

 

[[70521]]

I know this has been done to death over the years, but what are the current trends in flares?
New insurer says I can't have the out of date ones any more. Spoilsports.

Have you asked them why?

I am a huge fan of pyrotechnics having been involved in Mountain Rescue for a few years, they are brilliant at guiding a rescue party/helicopter in for the last mile. I will caveat my comment by saying that you should be trained in there use and remind yourself how to use them now and again.

Like all things manufactures will cover their asses and give a shorter use by date than they know the compounds are stable. I've used flares that given the correct storage conditions, a cool dry place worked normally.

There is a thread from about a year ago where a chap stored his flares in a deck locker above a life raft in the Med and was surprised when they self ignited. Goodness knows what the temprature in there got up to but I suspect about 50 degrees C!