Flares - redundant technology?

[Refueler]

Go with this. An EPIRB is not to compare with all the limitations of flares. Go buy it! (and hope never to use it!) That disposes of rockets.

Having a powerful electric lamp is better than a white flare IMO. I have one that is powered off a cigar lighter just inside the hatchway where it has been very useful on the occasional close encounter at night.

PWG

Boat sinking ... batterys flooded out .... your socket has just gone PHUT !

I agree that a good power lamp is worth carrying - I use one to light up the sails when ships approach ... but is NOT a replacement for flares in any way or means ....
Epirb relies on station passing on to CG ... then launch of services .... time delays all critical ... para-flare is instant and as it climbs is seen by any boat for miles OR close by .... and NOT misunderstood.

I'm amazed at the decisions by some about lives on thier boats ... If I was to crew on a boat and find no flares - I go home. Simple as that. Electronics / new technology relies on connections, others listening, others acting on its transmit. Flares - parachute and hand - need no electrics, are universally understood and seen by anyone local. The epirb is NOT heard or read by anyone locally ..... My life is worth more than that thankyou ...

I posted long time ago : What the case in court if you as a skipper have fatality / serious injury on board that due to time delays in receiving emergency services because you use electronic other means compared to a flare or two that may have secured assistance quicker ? Food for thought ...

 

[William_H]

Flares

Flares are a well recognised way of summoning aid in an emergency. To not carry flares and rely on other communications methods may leave a skipper open to criticism in the case of a tragedy. So you really need to carry them.

Authorities around here require boats to carry flares. Parachute red for distances over 3nm from coast. In close (less than 3nm) hand held flares are OK in both cases 2 smoke flares and 2 red flares are a minimum. It is interesting that for pleasure boats they are not fussed with out of date flares but they must be in date for commercial operations. I guess the chances of failure of a flare would rise with time and 3 year life is an arbitary figure put on by conservative authorities. in a flare demo we had a while back none failed though most were over 10 years old. So definitely hang on to the old ones. No I don' think there is any risk of inadvertent operation if they are old and certainly not compared to the safety value of having added flares which may or may not work because they are old.

I think in any legal scenario either defending yourself in the case of a tragedy or insurance claim, you really need to be able to show that you have done all that is reasonable in comparison to what the general boating population do or would do. So I think yes carry flares and yes keep the old ones at least for 10 years. IMHO olewill

 

[Ubergeekian]

Go with this. An EPIRB is not to compare with all the limitations of flares. Go buy it! (and hope never to use it!) That disposes of rockets.

It disposes of rockets if you don;t mind waiting for local rescue services only to come to your aid after the couple of hours it takes for the message to get to Falmouth, them to find and ring your emergency contact and so on. If ou want to attract the attention of the boat three miles over there (----->), fire a flare. EPIRBS do a splendid job, but it's not the job flares do.

 

[waltonsboater]

A factor to also take into account is that the disposal of TEP's is all changing. From 31st March this year. CG and RNLI will no longer take in TEP's. Collection from that time is done by ROMA UK, Portsmouth who have set up 18 collection points around U.K. My base, the Isle of Wight which has a large private & fishing boating business, does not have a collection point the nearest from 1st April being Lee-on-Solent. (I see a number of TEP's being disposed in the waters around the IOW post 31st March) Roma may make a charge to take your out of date flares but this has still to be confirmed.........

Not quite true, the CG have arranged the collection of TEP with ROMA, who are collecting from the 18 collection points around the UK - being costguard stations.
There is no charge for this service.

Commercial organisations and businesses have always had to arrange disposal of their TEPs (due to the volumes involved)

The RNLI do not and have never (officially) provided disposal facilities for TEPs to my knowledge.

To the original question, I would always like to give myself the best chance of being found and rescued, so in date flares are definatly high up on my essentials list.

 

[Achillesheel]

I can't see any reason why not to carry flares; they don't take up much room, after all.

I took my out of date flares to the local cop shop yesterday for disposal; the desk sergeant was slightly bemused (this was Cheltenham after all, and these were probably the first marine distress flares he had seen) but I explained that I had brought some in before, and he took them without argument.

 

[fisherman]

With us, no flares no MCA ticket: no ticket, no insurance. It'll come to you lot some day.
What are the regs if you're chartering? Do you have minimum safety equipment requirements?

 

[Mrs FG]

Mr FG is biased, being an ammunition expert, but wouldn't be without them, myself.
Recently read a book by someone who had survived the 1979 Fastnet and was very grateful to have been able to set some off on the last night of Cowes Week, before he had to use them in anger. I would recommend, come 5th November, you do the same with any that have passed their shelf life.

 

[PeterGibbs]

This is not well balance advice, IMHO.

As mentioned above beacons take time to work through a system, they do not communicate to the immediate area. Someone walking a dog along a cliff path will recognise a red flare as a distress signal and would call 999, apart from a burning barrel of tar this is about the only signal that is so universally responded to.

EPIRBS and PLBs have a very valuable role, but they are not a replacement for flares.

What I have advocated is indeed, informed advice. Rockets and hand held pyrotechnics are on the way out, and good practice dictates so.

Those of us who have done real time with these things know how unreliable they are, unpredictable, and dammed dangerous. Hand flares are major hazzards not least because they heat they generate.

It is a false premise that other vessels, assuming any are within range, will respond. The same goes for the "man out walking his dog" at 0200 hrs!! Any distance offshore, and pyrotechnics are invisible, and any thinking sailor will know this; I have seen rockets when at sea - you try pinning the sending position in pitch black.

Electronic rescue, even a mobile radio, if in range, is clearly the route. DSC has greatly improved the chances of an emergency call being successful - claims to the contrary have no foundation. And EPIRB responses are nothing like as laboured as some posts here believe.

When disaster strikes you throw everything at it. Standing on a pitching deck trying to set off rockets in the vague hope.....well, goodonyer, I say.

PWG

 

[Channel Ribs]

When disaster strikes you throw everything at it.

At least on that last remark we agree totally.

 

[NorthUp]

I wrote a long reply to Peter Gibs, but deleted it all except the last line:



I agree with you one one point- "When disaster strikes you throw everything at it".

 

[Seagreen]

Lunging sideways from the firearms thread, how about Flare pistols? Are these legal in the UK? How do these compare with pyro flares? I've used parachute flares in anger (or should that be panic?) but I'm not keen on keeping them on a boat with younger children poking in all the lockers.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Electronic rescue, even a mobile radio, if in range, is clearly the route. DSC has greatly improved the chances of an emergency call being successful - claims to the contrary have no foundation. And EPIRB responses are nothing like as laboured as some posts here believe.

I think "if in range" is the sting here. Flicking the switch for an automagic rescue is all very well, but when the nearest lifeboat may be many miles away, it doesn't look quite so comforting. Here are the resources where I sail:

Even in the relatively busy southern part of the est coast - up to Fort Willima - it's easy to be two or three hours away from the nearest lifeboat. In those circumstances, being able to alert any nearby vessels quickly is surely not to be sneezed at?

When disaster strikes you throw everything at it. Standing on a pitching deck trying to set off rockets in the vague hope.....well, goodonyer, I say.

Throw everything at it - indeed. Not just press the magic button and wait for help toa rrive (if the lifeboat isn't on another call already).

Incidentally (1): My new boat came with an EPIRB and I'm very glad it did. She'll be getting a new pack of flares in a month or so.

Incidentally (2): I used to sail with a Very Senior Coastguard from the east of England. His view was that rockets were useless - it takes two or three to attract attention and even then nobody has a clue where they are being fired from. On the other hand, he reckoned you could never have too many handheld reds. Six as a minimum.

 

[alan_d]

Be aware also that if you have out of date flares onboard which inadvertantly go off and damage boat (admitedly very rare) or you go to use them in an emergency and the same occurs, your insurance is null and void.

And your authority for this claim is?

 

[maxi77]

The biggest reason so far that any one has come up with for not carrying flres is that they are possibly dangerous, now is that as dangerous, or less dangerous than the petrol for the outboard, the gas for cooking, the lead acid battery, the lithium battery in the epirb.

A long time ago, when I had my first instruction in using explosives I was told they were completely safe, as long as you remebered they were bl**dy dangerous.

At the end of the day there is no one alerting device for use in emergency that will guarantee the fastest rescue.

 

[Seagreen]

.... I used to sail with a Very Senior Coastguard from the east of England. His view was that rockets were useless - it takes two or three to attract attention and even then nobody has a clue where they are being fired from. On the other hand, he reckoned you could never have too many handheld reds. Six as a minimum.

When I was in deep poo north of Alderney nearly 20 years ago, Alderney Lifeboat crew saw my red parachute flare as they left Braye, and I was 15 miles north of them at the time. Granted, it was midnight and they were looking for me, having been alerted by VHF, but that still makes them useful. I suppose really they should only be bought and kept on the boat if you intend to make passages where you may need them. On balance, for short coasting passages. Now, I think GPS, VHF and even a mobile phone are better safer and cheaper options.

Its ocurred to me that the "Burning tar barrel", or at least, a black smoke generating device would have more use. Would a pan of diesel-soaked teatowels on a wooden locker lid on the deck work better than smoke flares?

On the other hand, a floating orange smoke kept in the cockpit and thrown overboard following a 'MOB' would be of more use than a Baltic Lifebouy, IMHO.

 

[Ubergeekian]

When I was in deep poo north of Alderney nearly 20 years ago, Alderney Lifeboat crew saw my red parachute flare as they left Braye, and I was 15 miles north of them at the time. Granted, it was midnight and they were looking for me, having been alerted by VHF, but that still makes them useful.

I suspect that my chum's views were shaped by the area he worked in ... and, to be fair, he was criticising them as a way of attracting attention, rather than, as in you case, helping to confirm position.

At some point soon I have to sit down and work out what to buy for the new boat - at the moment I'm thinking three parachute reds, six handheld reds, three handheld whites.

 

[Channel Ribs]

On the other hand, a floating orange smoke kept in the cockpit and thrown overboard following a 'MOB' would be of more use than a Baltic Lifebouy, IMHO.

That is an excellent idea:

1) The floundering MOB has a single point to head towards.

2) Anyone else in the area immediately know there is a distress situation.

3) The can will drift with the tide and stay in the area of the MOB, it will also indicate wind to make recovery more efficient.

 

[JohnTH]

It never ceases to amuse me how many different opinions there are about the same thing.

For my part flares are an essential that complement not replace, better looking at them rather than looking for them is my saying. Having used them in anger, I have welders gloves in the flare box too.

Flares are, to quote Mrs FG, perfectly safe as long as you remember how dangerous they are. (Wish that I had said that!). I just do not understand why there is so much difficulty disposing of time expired items.

Patrons of the Scottish Boat Jumble at Troon on Sunday 2 May 2010 can use the FREE disposal service. A donation to the RNLI will sweeten the deal.

73s de

Johnth

 

[fergie_mac66]

flare disposal

It never ceases to amuse me how many different opinions there are about the same thing.

For my part flares are an essential that complement not replace, better looking at them rather than looking for them is my saying. Having used them in anger, I have welders gloves in the flare box too.

Flares are, to quote Mrs FG, perfectly safe as long as you remember how dangerous they are. (Wish that I had said that!). I just do not understand why there is so much difficulty disposing of time expired items.

Patrons of the Scottish Boat Jumble at Troon on Sunday 2 May 2010 can use the FREE disposal service. A donation to the RNLI will sweeten the deal.

73s de

Johnth

We got a slip from the cg66 service in the post advertising the new flare disposal service points round the country

http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/enewsletters/Cruising news/feb/Pages/flaredisposal.aspx

 

[JohnTH]

Excellent, so now that there is a foolproof (?) method of disposal in the UK we can all put to sea with our flares again.

I do hope we never have to use them in anger and they all end up time expired for safe disposal.

Remember a pair of welders gloves in with the flair box.

73s de

Johnth