Flares - in Greece

[Caladh]

I've just been reading the thread on Flares vs. EPIRB/PLB in the Practical section got me thinking. Am I legally required to carry flares on my UK Registered yacht in Greece or Turkey - or an EU country for that matter. I do and also have EPIRB but no PLB. What says you ?

 

[RAI]

Portugal certainly requires both flares and an EPIRB on ocean going yachts (which are any that sailed to Portugal).

 

[Tranona]

This is a very grey area (as you will see if you read the RYA advice on the subject). But to summarise, coastal states have the right to impose their own laws on foreign registered vessels, but few do, relying on the principle of "comity" which is one state recognising the laws of another in the specific circumstances.

In practice very few states (including Greece and Turkey) do, although as suggested Portugal is one. However the law they have enacted only applies officially to boats that are "resident" there, which is defined as in the country for more than 180 days. This does not so far seem to have been enforced, but it is also true that 3 or 4 years ago some local officials were trying to enforce the laws on visitors. In fact it was this that prompted questions about the legality which then led to the current policy. So, if you are a visitor they do not apply, but do apply to resident.

The fear with other countries such as Greece is that local officials can "make up" their own rules, or more likely if a foreign boat gets into trouble and ends up under the control of the Port Police they will find a way of penalising you if you do not meet what they consider to be requirements.

So, you may consider it wise to have flares on board rather than run the risk of getting into an argument with officials. Just as an example of the ambiguity in the Greek system, my charter boat passed one of its surveys with an incomplete, out of date pack of flares and out of date service record on the fire extinguishers!

 

[Tony Cross]

Although I have not been able to find this written down anywhere, the law in Greece is that the safety equipment you are required to carry is up to the flag state. However, Greek law requires that all safety equipment on board must be in working order and in-date as far as servicing is concerned. I have heard anecdotal stories of one or two people having their safety gear inspected for in-date compliance by over-enthusiastic port authorities.

 

[vyv_cox]

Although I have not been able to find this written down anywhere, the law in Greece is that the safety equipment you are required to carry is up to the flag state. However, Greek law requires that all safety equipment on board must be in working order and in-date as far as servicing is concerned. I have heard anecdotal stories of one or two people having their safety gear inspected for in-date compliance by over-enthusiastic port authorities.

I think the case under discussion was at Thassos, where there seems to be an official with that particular bee in his bonnet. Several boats have been inspected there for in-date flares and fire extinguishers with a requirement to renew them if out of date. It doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere.

 

[Caladh]

Thanks for this info and yes you are right Vyv, passing through Thassos this year were were told about this keen official but never met him ! His brother apparently ran the local chandlery.................

 

[DaiB]

Port police in Thassos checked out ours in June this year. They were out of date so they requested we renew them with minimum Greek law requirements. Cost us 36 euros and then a trip to thier office to show them we had complied.
No hassle and very polite so happy to go along with it.

 

[srm]

A bit off your track, but I had flares and fire extinguishers checked for expiry/service dates in Santa Maria, Azores, Portugal, earlier this year, along with receipts for light dues and engine tax.

 

[charles_reed]

I've just been reading the thread on Flares vs. EPIRB/PLB in the Practical section got me thinking. Am I legally required to carry flares on my UK Registered yacht in Greece or Turkey - or an EU country for that matter. I do and also have EPIRB but no PLB. What says you ?

As with most things Greek it's up to the inspecting authority.
In a couple of Aegean harbours (to my knowledge) the Port Police came round inspecting fire-extinguishers (proof of testing), flares and lifejackets.
They accepted no arguments about visiting flag requirements and demanded that in-date flares, stamped-as-tested extinguishers were on all boats before they were permitted to leave.

 

[Dave100456]

I would defend the right for visiting yachts to only be required to have safety equipment complying with their flag state.

However, I can see see justification for foreign officials taking steps against a yacht if she is carrying "explosives" that are passed their use by date. Certainly, the pyrotechnic manufacturer would not guarantee their integrity and in harbour, I'd find it hard to defend the position that they were safe.

That said I have on board some expired pyrotechnics as on balance, at sea their presence is an advantage.

 

[RAI]

I don't think flares get more dangerous as they get older, they get less reliable. Particularly the fuze element starts to fail with age. So they just don't light.
The maritime police have started applying to yachts the regulations intended for commercial traffic; preventing them from leaving harbour in an unsafe condition.
A ship on innocent passage need only obey its flag state laws, which apply in tidal waters. In harbour, the ship can be considered as no longer on innocent passage.

 

[Dave100456]

I don't think flares get more dangerous as they get older, they get less reliable. Particularly the fuze element starts to fail with age. So they just don't light.
The maritime police have started applying to yachts the regulations intended for commercial traffic; preventing them from leaving harbour in an unsafe condition.
A ship on innocent passage need only obey its flag state laws, which apply in tidal waters. In harbour, the ship can be considered as no longer on innocent passage.

Thanks for that which is quite worrying. How does it work for a commercial vessel in a foreign port; are its flag state laws superseded and does it then have to comply with the laws of each country it visits?

 

[GrahamM376]

Thanks for that which is quite worrying. How does it work for a commercial vessel in a foreign port; are its flag state laws superseded and does it then have to comply with the laws of each country it visits?

Have a read of this - http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/conven/unclostable.html , sorry that's the index, this is better - http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/unclos_e.pdf

 

[macd]

How does it work for a commercial vessel in a foreign port; are its flag state laws superseded and does it then have to comply with the laws of each country it visits?

For commercial ships, I imagine comity generally applies (see post #3). For the rest of us it sometimes depends which side of bed any particular official got out of that morning. Unfortunately there is no treaty dictating that sort of thing :ambivalence:

 

[RAI]

This is the directive I was thinking of
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-10-1115_en.htm

 

[Tranona]

This is the directive I was thinking of
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-10-1115_en.htm

That is more concerned with making port inspections more co-ordinated and sharing of information rather than what the inspections do. Unlike pleasure boats there is much more harmonisation of standards through the IMO, but the difficulty is actually enforcing them when the prime responsibility for inspection lies with the flag state.

Local ports and enforcement bodies such as the MCA in UK have considerable powers to inspect and if necessary detain visiting ships. However, as you can see from the directive there is no requirement, or practical means of carrying out, 100% inspections.

In the pleasure boat world, including commercial operations of pleasure boats we are a long way from any kind of standardisation, nor any real pressure even within the EU to make any changes. It does come up fairly regularly from EU politicians trying to make a name for themselves - most recently from a Dutch MEP a couple of years ago, but it always gets kicked into touch. This is partly because there is little evidence that the lack of standards poses any serious safety issue (unlike in commercial shipping) and partly because there are other more pressing things to worry about!

 

[duncan99210]

As a general rule of thumb, if you don't upset the local officials, they'll leave you alone. If you on the other hand, you upset them, be prepared for them to become difficult and start applying all sorts of rules, real or imagined. Be nice and helpful and all,should be OK.

 

[AndrewB]

Port police in Thassos checked out ours in June this year. They were out of date so they requested we renew them with minimum Greek law requirements. Cost us 36 euros and then a trip to thier office to show them we had complied.
No hassle and very polite so happy to go along with it.

Also got checked in Thassos this summer. My hand flares were well out of date but fortunately the batch number is 2018, that seemed to do!

 

[macd]

Also got checked in Thassos this summer. My hand flares were well out of date but fortunately the batch number is 2018, that seemed to do!

You jammy beggar. If you have any racing tips, please feel free to share them