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[Captain_Ahab]

I am an American Citizen with indefinite leave to remain status in the UK. I plan on residing here for a number of years and living aboard. I am in the process of acquiring a British registered yacht and was wondering what I needed to do to be able to fly the "Stars and Stripes" on her.

If this would require me to re-register her as an American vessel how do I go about doing that?

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[AndrewB]

As a US citizen you cannot continue to register a yacht that you own in Britain, except under corporate status, but must apply for USCG documentation (see <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/vdoc/genpub.htm>HERE</A>). That way you get to fly the Stars & Stripes. I believe that you must provide a US port of registration and that makes you liable for state taxes: some states are better than others in this regard and it may be advisable to find a US broker or agent to arrange the documentation for you most economically. There are plenty advertising on the web.

The alternative is UK corporate status, a bit costly to set up since it involves creating a UK company, so usually only done for luxury yachts. Then you'd have to fly the Red Duster.

You can keep the yacht indefinitely in Europe provided it is VAT paid (or exempt) and EC certificated, but being US registered this could get questioned, specially when you come to sell, so make sure the yacht's documentation is 100% in proving this.

Of course, as a US citizen you don't actually need to pay VAT. It is likely be considerably cheaper to buy in the States and have the yacht shipped over. Technically you can only keep it VAT unpaid in the EU for 18 months by claiming temporary importation relief, but I suspect there are ways of extending this period.

 

[Altair]

Having met a number of US boats whilst sailing in the Med last summer, the general concensus amongst them was to avoid flying The Stars & Stripes as much as possible. They experienced some hostile feelings towards Americans particularly in Italy, Spain, Portugal and France.

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[snowleopard]

it's a common practice to fly the flag(s) of the nationality of crew members, where different from the country of registry, from the port spreader. as long as you also carry any appropriate courtesy flag from the starboard spreader that should cause no problems.

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[Captain_Ahab]

According to what I have read on the USCG page, it would appear I do not have to register if my vessel is operating outside navigable waters of the US. As I intend on residing in the UK for the long term future, if I understand this correctly I need only to cancel the UK registration (due to being a US Citizen).

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/faq.htm#01

Is this correct?

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[MainlySteam]

While I cannot speak authoratively for the UK, you do not seem to be getting anywhere answer wise and as most places work the same here is a try.

If you have the right to reside in a country (eg the UK) you have the right (normally) to possess a pleasure vessel in that country and it does not have to be put on a register (documented in USA terms). As a USA citizen, my understanding as one of your freedoms you may fly the USA flag at any time and that may be on a yacht whether owned by you or not, or whether you are in the USA or not (although local law or custom if in another country, or if the yacht is on another register may complicate that).

However, when you buy a UK flagged vessel, you as a non UK citizen cannot keep it on the UK register unless you create a company domiciled in UK. But you do not need to register it anywhere else either, unless -

If you purchase the boat outside the UK and intend sailing it to the UK you will not be able to clear the country of departure and will be unwelcome in most others if the vessel is not registered somewhere (in your case that would have to be the USA unless the boat was put into the ownership of a company owned by you but domiciled in another country) - the registration is the equivalent of the boat's passport.

OR if the boat is in the UK and you intend sailing it to a foreign port at any time then again the vessel must be on a register - as before that means for you, most likely, to be documented in USA.

If the boat is registered then it must fly the flag/ensign of the country on whose register it is on, you cannot fly the USA flag in its place.

After all that, as I see it you can do exactly as you state you want to do as long as the boat is purchased in the UK and you do not intend sailing it anywhere else.

John

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[AndrewB]

What you say is probably true: that there is no need to register the yacht provided it is kept and used solely in the UK, and nothing to stop a Stars & Stripes being flown. However, there is some question in my mind as to whether the right NOT to register a yacht kept in the UK now formally is a privilege that applies to UK citizens only. It probably wouldn't matter in practice.

I take it that you are not intending to imply that in general, a right of residency confers the same privileges as citizenship when it comes to yacht registration and use.

 

[MainlySteam]

<<<right of residency confers the same privileges as citizenship when it comes to yacht registration and use>>>

No not at all, although all western places I know of do not place any boat use restrictions on those with the right to reside, but I could not speak authoratively for the case in the UK. Obviously, registration is limited to citizens and domiciled companies of the country of registration.

Regards

John

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[Captain_Ahab]

I work for one of the UK police forces, only recently has there be legislation to allow foreign citizens who have indefinite leave to remain to work for the police. Previously it has been the same requirements as it seems to register a vessel in the UK. Perhaps maritime legislation will catch up with the government employment legislation. Until that time it would seem that I will have to un-register the yacht and fly the Stars and Stripes as I desire.

Problems will arise though if I wish to sail to a port outside the UK. According to the USCG it would appear that my boat is 4 tons, just under the 5 ton minimum to be documented. This begs the question, will the only way I can sail to a port outside the UK be to create a UK corporation?

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[scarlett]

Stars and stripes

US citizens have been advised not to show their nationality by flying their flags in the Eastern Med.

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[alant]

"you create a company domiciled in UK".
This also means 'offshore territories' such as Gibraltar, where non-UK citizens can register a company, usually with the specific purpose of obtaining a UK registration. Effectively in my eyes adopting a disguise.
Alternatively, you could join one of the many clubs which effect a Blue Ensign, which keeps many foreign officials happy.

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[ubuysa]

<font size=1>I work for one of the UK police forces, only recently has there be legislation to allow foreign citizens who have indefinite leave to remain to work for the police</font size=1>

You mean I can get nicked by a copper whose not even a British Citizen? Scary!

Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[AndrewB]

Stymied!

That's tricky! Can you double-check the tonnage? Normally registration relates to gross (volume) tonnage, not displacement (weight). For modern GRP yachts these can be quite different. 4 tons gross implies a very small yacht for a liveaboard, which is how you described her, I think from memory about 25 feet LOA.

If you do own a yacht of this size, then corporate registration is not going to be economically sensible. In view of the obdurance of all authorities concerned, I'd be very tempted to apply for UK SSR registration and gloss over my nationality, or maybe get a British friend to register for me!

Incidentally, to reply to another poster, a yacht owned or part-owned by a foreign citizen cannot fly a Blue Ensign.

 

[Captain_Ahab]

Re: Stymied!

She is a 27 foot wooden gaff rigged cutter. She is small for a liveaboard but I am a former soldier and can live quite comfortably in very close quarters. Her displacement and weight are close and both under 5 tons.

A mate has suggested joining an American Yacht club by proxy (through my father-in-law who is ex-Navy) where that membership should be enough to prove her nationality to foreign authorities. Does this seem a valid suggestion?

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[AndrewB]

No.

Not unless it provides you with something that looks unmistakably like a proper national yacht registration document. The trouble is that in recent years the French and other some other Euros have become very keen on inspecting the yacht's actual documentation ... and even keener on fining those which are not absolutely in order. As a non-EU national you could expect to be singled out for inspection.

It would be worth approaching the US and UK registration authorities to explain the difficulty caused by their rules, and maybe even the French customs (assuming that is the most likely place you'll visit outside UK) to see if they would be prepared to accept surrogate documentation - but somehow I doubt it.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Stymied!

<<<Does this seem a valid suggestion?>>>

No.

The basic facts are, as have been stated before, pretty much the following:

1. If you have the right of residence in a western country you are normally entitled to ownership and unrestricted use of a pleasure vessel in that country. To the best of my knowledge that applies to the UK and no one has yet said otherwise.

2. If you wish to sail from those waters into the territorial waters of another nation then your vessel by international convention must be on the register of some nation (unless there is an agreement between the nations to forgo that - think as between USA and Canada, but that is unusual) - to the best of my knowledge such agreements do not exist between the UK and any other nation.

3. To place your vessel on a nation's register the vessel must normally be at least majority owned by a citizen or domiciled company of that nation (in your case that seems to have to be the USA). Some smaller nations will waiver this requirement if there is a genuine need for a waiver shown but you may find that they also only accept pleasure vessels over some minimum size eg 50 gross ton - however, exploring such possibilites would seem unworthwhile for a very small vessel.

4. If you place your vessel on a nation's register eg if documented in USA, then that vessel is a foreign one in other nations' waters regardless of the crew's and owner's nationality or rights of residence. That means that the vessel may face limit of stay restrictions in UK waters, say, without special arrangements, normally implicating tax liability, being made (usually administered by the nation's custom's service, assuming such arrangements are possible - I would imagine that a USA flagged vessel on which VAT and any other taxes have been paid would be allowed permanent stay in UK waters but you would have to talk to the relevant authority on that, probably HM Customs). Usually limit of stay can be circumvented by clearing for and entering a foreign port and then returning. When in the foreign waters you are required to fly the flag of the boat's nationality, not the owner's (and usually applies to at least some extent in the boat's home nation's waters too, although that is often not policed).

So your options are limited, however they are not burdensome because they are what everyone else has to comply with and manages to meet. There may be some classy way of getting around them, but I doubt that they are worth the trouble and risk.

John

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[Captain_Ahab]

Re: Stymied!

So basically I am still where I started with this issue, other than the fact I now know I can not keep her registered as a UK vessel, I can fly the US flag if I choose, and I should not have a problem sailing her as long as I avoid non-UK ports.

Lovely.

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[MainlySteam]

Re: Stymied!

But you can go to non-UK ports if you document the vessel in USA, but you would need to check with the authorities in UK (in most countries it is the customs service as the issue is sales tax/duty/VAT and whether the vessel is to be considered imported or not) about how long it can stay in the then "foreign" to it UK waters. Having previously been a UK tax paid vessel you may find that there is no problem with how long it can stay in UK waters under a "foreign" flag as it is already "imported" and taxes paid.

This is not a problem only you face. Everyone else has to place their vessels on a nation's register before sailing internationally, and they all manage to do so. I have known foreign flagged yachts to have been kept in one country for years - the owners have just discussed the situation with the authorities and agreed to an arrangement.

John

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[Captain_Ahab]

Re: Stymied!

But the problem that springs to mind is that the USCG only documents vessels 5 tons or larger. My boat is 4 tons.

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[Vasco]

Fly your flag

If your yacht will be British , she obviously will have to wear the Red Ensign , but you can fly your flag on the starboard crosstrees , like a House Flag, acording to the rules as stated by the RYA on one of their publications . Maybe someone has a different interpretation of the rules,but that's what I made of it.
Having said this , I have an Irish friend who flew a huge Irish flag on the ensign staff despite the yacht he was running was registered in Southampton , I have flown the Portuguese flag on a French registered yacht and to this day allways fly the same flag ( now in it's proper place....) on every yacht I sail, regardless of registration. Allthough flags nowadays relate more to how you want to be perceived by others ( I'm still to hear of a story where the coastguard or it's equivalent will prosecute someone for flying the wrong flag) , it's seamanlike to observe the etiquette.
I have met several american cruisers is different parts of the world who in the past year or so , for political reasons, keep Old Glory carefully wrapped up or even stowed nowhere to be seen. I think it's great to show one's pride , but you shouldn't go as far as re-register the yacht just to be able to fly the US flag as the Ensign , since you can still display it at your will....

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