Fit a fixed VHF?

[yachtorion]

I'm trying to decide whether to fit a fixed VHF to my Hunter Liberty. The Liberty is a coastal and estuary boat and that's my intended use.

The boat currently has no electrical system at the old one was unsafe. I'm installing a new one.

There is no VHF antenna. There is no NMEA source of GPS data as I plan to use a tablet for nav.

I'm tempted to buy a handheld DSC VHF with integrated GPS. I'd get one with a charging cradle and hook it up to the 12v system for charging.

The alternative would be to get a VHF antenna and a fixed VHF with a built in GPS.

The fixed VHF would supply better range but I'm not sure I need it. The handheld keeps things simple (i.e. reliable) and easy to repair/replace.

What would you do?

 

[PabloPicasso]

There are handheld DSC GPS VHF radios now I believe. That would be the easiest solution. You could carry it in a pouch on your PFD then if you went MOB it might still be of use.

A quick google showed Standard Horizon HX870E at around £250. There are similar models from other manufacturers.

 

[STOL71]

What is the range of a handheld VHF about 2 meters above the water and what range would be required to summon help if you do coastal/estuary sailing.

 

[PabloPicasso]

What is the range of a handheld VHF about 2 meters above the water and what range would be required to summon help if you do coastal/estuary sailing.

Range is line of sight only with a VHF. You could have a higher aerial installed aboard with the correct connector to your handheld. I believe this would be different to most fixed VHF sets. But low power of handhelds might be a restriction on useful range, but still an improvement on hand level.

Otherwise a car battery, solar panel, and fixed set to optimise VHF usage, also gives an option to fit a depth sounder which might be useful inshore

This website gives distance to horizon based on meters height
http://www.table-references.info/earth-table-distances.php

 

[yachtorion]

What is the range of a handheld VHF about 2 meters above the water and what range would be required to summon help if you do coastal/estuary sailing.

Great questions!

Obviously depends on the receiving antenna so hard to calculate. The only data I could find on UK coastguard antenna heights was a minimum of 60m for "operational needs".

So if my handheld is at 2m, and the CG at 60, range is 24 miles.

If I have a masthead areial at around 8m, and the CG is still at 60, effective range is 27 miles.

This assumes the CG antenna is good enough to pick up 6w transmission power at this range.

So not a huge difference.... I do carry a 406mhz PLB.

 

[yachtorion]

Range is line of sight only with a VHF. You could have a higher aerial installed aboard with the correct connector to your handheld. I believe this would be different to most fixed VHF sets. But low power of handhelds might be a restriction on useful range, but still an improvement on hand level.

Otherwise a car battery, solar panel, and fixed set to optimise VHF usage, also gives an option to fit a depth sounder which might be useful inshore

This website gives distance to horizon based on meters height
http://www.table-references.info/earth-table-distances.php

There will be power onboard (and a sounder), but once I fit a fixed VHF I have to:

• Install/maintain antenna.
• Install/maintain mast cable and connector.
• Install/maintain deck gland/connector.
• Install/route/maintain vhf cable internally.
• Mount radio.
• Install/route/maintain power cables and feed.

All of this I've done before and can do again. It does end up being a lot more complicated and therefore prone to failure. Probably no cheaper than the handheld, even a high end one. In return I do get extra range - but perhaps as little as 3 miles.

I think talking it through is convincing me that the handheld is the way to go!

 

[PetiteFleur]

On my first boat, there was a vhf aerial already on the mast head so when Father Christmas got me a hand held VHF I fitted the requisite plug to fit the aerial socket and it worked really well in the Thames Estuary. Easily contacted CG when needed.
I would go for the mast head aerial with the plug to fit the H/H(but make sure the aerial has a socket for an aerial!)

 

[johnalison]

As someone who cruised happily at home and abroad for many years without any radio, I may not be the best person to advise, but I would say that a lot depends upon what use you intend to make of it. A handheld can be ideal for chatting (!) to friends in the area and calling up harbours, or even passing ships, but is less useful for monitoring traffic, such as CG weather forecasts, and certainly not for emergency use, when range and battery duration are essential. As a compromise, I like the idea of a M/H aerial socket for an H/H, but I have not seen this in action.

 

[maby]

Great questions!

Obviously depends on the receiving antenna so hard to calculate. The only data I could find on UK coastguard antenna heights was a minimum of 60m for "operational needs".

So if my handheld is at 2m, and the CG at 60, range is 24 miles.

If I have a masthead areial at around 8m, and the CG is still at 60, effective range is 27 miles.

This assumes the CG antenna is good enough to pick up 6w transmission power at this range.

So not a huge difference.... I do carry a 406mhz PLB.

I would not count on 24 miles out of a handie - even to a decently high antenna at the other end. It is a question of power as well as antenna height and handies are 5W or less as opposed to the 25W of a fixed radio. We often use a DSC handie to communicate between our dinghy and the fixed radio on the yacht - with an antenna at about 15m - I reckon a range of 5 miles is not bad.

 

[LadyInBed]

I'm not up to date on the HH market but are there any about that you can unplug the helical and plug in a whip?

An aside, but I think relevant, when I had cause to talk to the CG a couple of weeks ago I called them on my HH at about 15 - 18 mls out on 16 and we communicated ok, when they asked me to switch to 67, they couldn't hear me, so I went down to my fixed set and was ok.
I think this confirms a discussion in another thread that the CG CH16 antenna is more sensitive than the one for other channels.

 

[maby]

I'm not up to date on the HH market but are there any about that you can unplug the helical and plug in a whip?

An aside, but I think relevant, when I had cause to talk to the CG a couple of weeks ago I called them on my HH at about 15 - 18 mls out on 16 and we communicated ok, when they asked me to switch to 67, they couldn't hear me, so I went down to my fixed set and was ok.
I think this confirms a discussion in another thread that the CG CH16 antenna is more sensitive than the one for other channels.

Every handie I've seen in the last few years had a removable antenna, but they are generally not on common plugs. I'm sure that it is possible to make up an appropriate cable, but it would require some fiddling and a bit of soldering.

 

[dolabriform]

Just my 2p but if you are worried about power use then why not have a basic HH for day to day use but keep a cheap Fixed DSC with a cheap S/H Garmin that outputs NMEA for emergency use. Or even a cheap S/h Non DSC fixed and do a mayday with the co-ordinates off your phone in an emergency?

 

[jac]

I'm also in the fit a fixed camp.

Get a DSC one with a built in GPS and then you simply need an antenna and power feed.

If you go down the route of a HH with a charging cradle and a masthead then you have almost exactly the same installation / maintenance to do, just with a unit that can move but has 1/5 of the tx power.

The fixed will give you greater range which can never be a bad thing.

 

[ShinyShoe]

So you have £250 to spend.

You can buy a Handheld DSC. Single unit. Self contained.

You can buy a £100 VHF plus £40 antenna some coax, some plugs and a cheap GPS - You can probably sort that for about £170 if you shop around. Leaves £80 for a separate standard H/H VHF which is do-able by keeping an eye on the sales. Gives you redundancy. It you sort the patch cables right you can use antenna from either. Budget too tight - swap the HH VHF for a Buofung in a waterproof bag.

I don't think you can work on a H/H VHF being at 2m height. That requires you to be stood perfectly upright. In an emergency you may be unable to stand. Better to assume a VHF is at water line as it might be if you go for a swim. Your 2m gives you about 3NM to the horizon. If you drop to 6 inches its < 1NM and you might just ignore it. So for handheld purposes most people suggest just talking the antenna height of the other end. So ~ 15NM is probably a realistic reach for HH to a CG mast and yes - probably only on 16.

Some things to be aware of (I know same could happen on a Lead Acid) - if your LiIon is flat, plugging it into the charger wont usually make the thing work instantly. You might have to wait 2 or 3 mins.

Also - unless you want to guzzle power you switch GPS function on the HH off, so if you then need it you switch on and add a delay. You fixed unit will be quicker to fire an alert, more reliable to do it and probably more user friendly too.

 

[dolabriform]

So you have £250 to spend.

You can buy a Handheld DSC. Single unit. Self contained.

You can buy a £100 VHF plus £40 antenna some coax, some plugs and a cheap GPS - You can probably sort that for about £170 if you shop around. Leaves £80 for a separate standard H/H VHF which is do-able by keeping an eye on the sales. Gives you redundancy. It you sort the patch cables right you can use antenna from either. Budget too tight - swap the HH VHF for a Buofung in a waterproof bag.

I don't think you can work on a H/H VHF being at 2m height. That requires you to be stood perfectly upright. In an emergency you may be unable to stand. Better to assume a VHF is at water line as it might be if you go for a swim. Your 2m gives you about 3NM to the horizon. If you drop to 6 inches its < 1NM and you might just ignore it. So for handheld purposes most people suggest just talking the antenna height of the other end. So ~ 15NM is probably a realistic reach for HH to a CG mast and yes - probably only on 16.

Some things to be aware of (I know same could happen on a Lead Acid) - if your LiIon is flat, plugging it into the charger wont usually make the thing work instantly. You might have to wait 2 or 3 mins.

Also - unless you want to guzzle power you switch GPS function on the HH off, so if you then need it you switch on and add a delay. You fixed unit will be quicker to fire an alert, more reliable to do it and probably more user friendly too.

+ 100

 

[yachtorion]

So you have £250 to spend.

You can buy a Handheld DSC. Single unit. Self contained.

You can buy a £100 VHF plus £40 antenna some coax, some plugs and a cheap GPS - You can probably sort that for about £170 if you shop around. Leaves £80 for a separate standard H/H VHF which is do-able by keeping an eye on the sales. Gives you redundancy. It you sort the patch cables right you can use antenna from either. Budget too tight - swap the HH VHF for a Buofung in a waterproof bag.

Let's put some real products and prices in. I did some searching around and tried to do everything as cheaply as possible while still using new warrantied and where possible branded kit.

Handheld option - Standard Horixon HX870E - £215

Fixed:
VHF: Standard Horizon GX1300E - £120
GPS: Unbranded Ebay Special NMEA GPS - £90
Antenna: Banton eBay SS Whip - £37
Cable: 10m RG58 w/ PL259 ends - £10
Deck Gland: vTronix Deck Gland (Split Seal) - £36

Total: £293

The budget should run to either solution though I don't want to spend money I don't need to.

I don't think you can work on a H/H VHF being at 2m height. That requires you to be stood perfectly upright. In an emergency you may be unable to stand. Better to assume a VHF is at water line as it might be if you go for a swim. Your 2m gives you about 3NM to the horizon. If you drop to 6 inches its < 1NM and you might just ignore it. So for handheld purposes most people suggest just talking the antenna height of the other end. So ~ 15NM is probably a realistic reach for HH to a CG mast and yes - probably only on 16.

I agree with that, though 1m is from the freeboard on the boat. If I go for a swim the fixed set won't be much help anyway. In either case, in coastal areas with high cliffs the PLB I carry is likely to be a more reliable method for requesting assistance. Thinking about my previous sailing, most of my VHF use has been for calling marinas or range safety vessels. I almost always used the handheld. I can remember trying to get hold of Tyne VTS and failing once - then trying with the fixed set. No luck there either. The top of the Hurley mast wasn't high enough either.

Some things to be aware of (I know same could happen on a Lead Acid) - if your LiIon is flat, plugging it into the charger wont usually make the thing work instantly. You might have to wait 2 or 3 mins.
Also - unless you want to guzzle power you switch GPS function on the HH off, so if you then need it you switch on and add a delay. You fixed unit will be quicker to fire an alert, more reliable to do it and probably more user friendly too.

Another possible win for the hand held there - the standard horizon has a tray that takes AAAs. It can live in the grab bag...

 

[yachtorion]

I'm also in the fit a fixed camp.

Get a DSC one with a built in GPS and then you simply need an antenna and power feed.

If you go down the route of a HH with a charging cradle and a masthead then you have almost exactly the same installation / maintenance to do, just with a unit that can move but has 1/5 of the tx power.

The fixed will give you greater range which can never be a bad thing.

You're right, the handheld with a masthead antenna would be the worst of all worlds. That antenna is actually quite a lot of work and cash.... and I've found the cables tend to need replacement every few years so create a maintenance overhead.

The cradle would require a power feed - but a low draw one and location would be less critical as you wouldn't need to be able to use the radio where the cradle was mounted. So that does make that part easier.

The range is the only thing making me ponder - would I be confident of picking up coastguard safety warning transmissions etc. I never had a problem doing that with the handheld in the past though.

 

[yachtorion]

Just my 2p but if you are worried about power use then why not have a basic HH for day to day use but keep a cheap Fixed DSC with a cheap S/H Garmin that outputs NMEA for emergency use. Or even a cheap S/h Non DSC fixed and do a mayday with the co-ordinates off your phone in an emergency?

Thanks - in this case power use not the concern.

 

[yachtorion]

Of course the extension of the argument that range isn't critical because I have the PLB would be that DSC therefore is also not critical - and I should just use the handheld icom I already have. Though I guess the flip side of this is the DSC hand held would alert anyone close enough to help me.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned directly would be that for good range the handheld does need to be used in the cockpit - which means wind/outboard noise etc.

 

[LadyInBed]

Another point that hasn't been mentioned directly would be that for good range the handheld does need to be used in the cockpit - which means wind/outboard noise etc.

I use my HH in the cockpit for convince, I've never had a problem with wind noise, no idea about OB noise
If you already have a HH, then buy a fixed set as your choice isn't to go for one or the other but to upgrade HH or buy a fixed, so it's a nobrainer.