First Boat

[AlexL]

I am in the process of purchasing my first boat, which will be used out of the Crouch or Blackwater and used mainly for learning (I have done up to Day Skipper on courses) - venturing further and further afield as my experience grows. I appreciate that whatever boat I buy will probably get replaced in 3-5 years as my knowledge and requirements are cristalized. My budget is up to about 50-55k for a new boat, or If I go second hand I would prefer to spend less - 35-45k. There will be 2 of us on most outings so it should be suitable for 2 but capable of taking family out aswell. Of the new boats I looked at the Bavaria 32 is by far the favorite (over the Ben 311 and Jeannau SO32) The Deck equipment seems (to my inexperienced eye) far better on the Bav as is the accomodation and stowage - I have taken one for a test sail - but I have very little reference. For second hand the Westerly Fulmar looks to be in good supply as do contessas, sadlers, Moody 31 and 33 and many others. My Question is - what is the opinion of the Bav 32 and what would the advice be, to buy new or a 20 year old Fulmar? I would prefer the total cost including depreciation and maintenance to be the decision criteria - not the amount of Initial cost. What would a 52k (cost of Bav32) boat sell for in say 5 years? What would a 20 year old 35k boat sell for in another 5 years?

Thanks

 

[Viking]

Its abit like learning to drive. I would start with a second hand boat, as you say something like a Moody 31 or Westerly to learn and make mistakes on. Your going to bump the pontoon and make mistakes, so do it on a 'solid' boat like the Moody or Westerly. They also have a good resale level.
Also join a Yacht/sailing club. When I started the support and knowledge passed down is unmeasureable. If the club does 'Cruising in company' again you and your crews experience and confidences will grow.
In time you will know when to 'buy-up'.

Good Luck

 

[ThomasHome]

I had a similar dilemma last year with a budget of 40k, looked at the Ben 311 and Bav 32, ended up spending 55k on the Bav with one or two extras, we wanted a boat that we could spend a comfortable few days on and a good boat sail, the Bavaria came out on top. some of the finishing off is not great, but you can't beat the value, not sure of the second hand values but there must be a least 8 or so new Bavaria 32's at our marina, that must say somthing!

Good luck

 

[jimi]

Risking starting a major Bav v Ben battle? Well why not? I've got a Beneteau 331 and have recently spent a week on a Bav 40 charter boat. I would say that initially the Bav looks better but when you start to delve and actually look at equipment spec,build quality then the Beneteau is superior but then I would say that!
Compare the overall specs of the boat ie GPS,autopilot, heating,radar,sails etc,etc and make a judgement based on that. The Ben 311 will outsail a Bav 32 IMHO. I'm putting my tin helmet on now!

 

[tony_brighton]

If a major criteria is depreciation then I'd be looking at the 2nd hand market for the types of boat you mention. The advantage is that Fulmars (for example) will have plateaued and possibly even appreciate a bit. The volume of newer boats being shifted by e.g. bav, jen etc means that there will be a plentiful supply of them for sale in 5 yrs and this will depress the 2nd hand market price (we've got a bav 34....).

Yes you will need to spend a bit mortime and money on maintenance but this will be a good investment of your time learning all those bits and pieces about yacht ownership that the RYA doesn't teach.

 

[jamesjermain]

Don\'t go for broke

Good advice from Viking.

I would suggest a five-year-old, or even a little older, model with a good reputation. The chances are this will be fitted out with most of the kit you will need so you won't have to worry so much about that. Also at that age, teething troubles should have been sorted yet the gear will still be in reasonable condition - assuming normal cruising use.

Try not to spend all your budget now. Keep the money in hand for the boat you will buy in five years time when you know what you want and all the gear you want to fit to it.

On this basis, a Moody 31Mk2, Westerly Fulmar, Konsort, Tempest or even a Storm, Contessa 32 Sadler 32 etc would do very well and keep the cost under £40,000. Others to look out for might include the First 345, First 35, Hunter Horizon 32, Jeanneau Sun Rise.

JJ

 

[Jacket]

I'm not sure if it fits your price range, but if you're after a new boat, have a look at the Hanse 311. The interior styling isn't to everyones taste, but the seem well built and are ment to sail well.

However, if its your first boat I'd suggest a second hand boat, because, as you said yourself, you're likely to sell it within a few years, so you'll loose out less to depreciation. I'd also recomend going for a slightly smaller boat than you might otherwise choose- it'll be cheaper, and if you make a bad purchase 9we nearly all do on our first boat) you'll loose less money (now there's a depressing commont to put people of buying boats. Sorry).

My own choice would be a Westerly GK29. I've got the smaller GK24, and they're great boats for learning on. They're forgiving to sail, but still faster than many modern boats (always good fun!). They're also built like tanks, so it doesn't matter if you hit things occasionally (I've dicovered that my boats stronger than a Bav 31- my rubbing strake was cracked and a stanchion bent, his bow was a mess).

 

[AlexL]

Are you implying that I crashed into things when I was learning to drive! (well there was this one incident with a mini......). I get your point though - I hadn't really thought of that (maybe I'll just buy some REALLY big fenders!)

 

[AlexL]

Re: Don\'t go for broke

Sounds like sound advice - Are these models all considered to be 'good' boats - i.e desirable to resale, good sailing qualities etc?

How do selling prices and advertised prices relate in the used boat market? do most boats sell at asking price or am I expected to ruthlessly haggle as I would when buying say a house? For example If I want to actually spend no more than say, 40k - is it worth looking at boats advertised at 41k,42k,...45k ?

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Don\'t go for broke

I shouldn't answer this question because my own boat is currently for sale (it's not one of the models listed)

JJ

 

[Twister_Ken]

Think keels

I note you're talking about the East Coast (aka Mud Alley). Many East Coasters choose lifting or bilge keeled boats to extend their cruising range/mitigate embarassement.

AFAIK, Bavs are not available with anything other than a fin keel, while there are some Bennies and Jennies around with lifting keels. But there are plenty of 2nd hand British boats around with lifting or bilge keel options. Parker, Hunter, Westerly, Sadler for example.

And as others have said, conventional wisdom is that your first boat is rarely your last boat, so why not go for something like a Sadler 29 that is an exceptionally competent boat, and spend two or three seasons learning to become 'citizens of the sea' with her, during which time your thoughts on your 'ultimate' boat will have time to mature.

As to depreciation, I think the jury is still out on the current generation of average white boats. So many have been sold, at new prices which have been stable or even decreased, that it's entirely likely thay will show some heavy depreciation when their 5 years is up.

BTW - conventional wisdom (again) is that if you are buying a new boat you should budget between 10 and 15% of her new price for all the extras that make a showroom boat into a seagoing one. With a used boat most, if not all, of the extras will be aboard, and although some may be nearing the end of the working life, a bit of replacement/refurbishment is cheaper than buying a complete inventory. When I bought my used boat, for example, the only money I had to spend for inventory was about £50 for a handbearing compass.

 

[tcm]

Re: First Boat Buyer

35 k sounds rather a lot for a 20 year old fulmar . Unfortunately (for you) sellers decide that their boat is "sought after" so hoik up all the prices.

With no boat you are the buyer from heaven - no boat to sell. So, offer low, cos you're serious and can move quickly. Praps find the most expensive and offer the same as the cheapest.

 

[david_e]

If you go used up to 5 years old then a Ben 311/Jen SO32 are worth looking at. For your part of the country there are many with lift keels which will be important to you, there are quite a few available and despite this the market in them is good. Well proven cruising boats for people in your position.

Depreciation? Who knows what will happen in the future, some will appreciate some will stay the same, others will drop. If the pound loses strength against the euro then the mass market boats will be OK, it is hard to see new boats getting wildly cheaper than they are now, so if sales slow up then manufacturers will have to respond by producing fewer boats which will lead to price rises and used will hold up. I think this year will see the biggest drops in used boat prices for some time.

 

[IanPoole2]

Re: Think keels & where you want to moor

I assume your looking at the Marina's on the blackwater & crouch.
Check the entrances / depths / sills of your chosen marina, some like Tollesbury are are quite restrictive and I even heard of several boats running aground in the entrance to Titchmarsh Marina last summer - playing follow the leader.
Twin keels can be good if you want to dry out, lifting means you can go creek crawling, fin can mean ooops - stuck again and it does n't look like you meant it

 

[ericw]

Alex,

I found myself in a similar situation not so long ago, albeit with a fair few more miles under the old belt ! I certainly had the capital available to go out and buy a new Bav/Ben, but bought a Sadler 34 instead. I'll keep some of the reasons to myself (for fear of sparking the 'old debate'), but I'd much rather own a Sadler 34/32/29 or say a Fulmar/Storm even if they are in the 15-20 yr old range.

Why ? Well, for me, it's a bit like owning an older, say Merc vs a new Ford as an analogy in the car world. Getting back to yachts tho, depends on your type of sailing. Reason I plumbed for the Sadler was that I loved the motion in a seaway and nobody seems to have a bad word to say about them. Sure, there are small gripes, but that's true of any vessel !

In your situation, I'd go for one of the older designs. U can pick up some well cared for examples for maybe around 10% below asking price and yes, some (eg Fulmars/Sadlers) may appear to be relatively expensive, but there's a good reason for that and it's not because the sellers mark the prices up ! (I've been a trader all my life and buyers don't pay what they pay just because a seller says that's what the product is worth ! They pay that price because that's what the buyer believes it's worth).

I've got nothing against the new breed of Bavs etc. - for their market they're fine. Depreciation will obviously count for a lot in terms of annual ownership cost - the older designs shouldn't cost you too much more in maintenance, given their general build quality, as long as u get a decent survey done and the hull is in good condition. If the surveyor reckons the hull will need to be epoxied in a couple of yrs time, factor that into your price. The same goes for the standing rigging.

As for performance, I must say that on balance there doesn't appear to have been a massive gain over the past 15-20 yrs. If u want a fast cruiser/racer a Sigma 33 will see off any of the new breed, but depends on whether the showroom asthetics are going to sway your choice or is it based upon purely sailing considerations. This is where the lady partners sometimes influence the decision. However, as much as my girlfriend would love a brand new, spotless yacht, even she saw the benefits of a deep cockpit vs. the raised sole of the newer designs (and that was without me pointing it out !).

Hope this is of some assistance and if u do decide on one of the newer designs, why not look at current resale values for 5-10 yr old examples of say Ben/Jeanneau - that'll enable u to do the sums with a bit more certainty.

And yes, I am chartering a Bav 32 this summer in the Med !

Best regards,

Eric.

www.HarryHindsight.com

 

[kingfisher]

Re: Don\'t go for broke

Asking price is usualy 10-15% inflated, so if you've got 40K, look for boats in the 46-40K range.

Group of people on the pontoon: skipper is the one with the toolbox.
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[Viking]

Its all learning, not just the sailing, but the engine, sails, rigging and the other equipment as well as mastering the weekly, monthly, yearly maintance. It give you the chance to play and learn and run aground without that extra worry of damaging the NEW boat.

Good Luck

 

[Guest]

50k for a first boat? Cor blimey. My first boat was a GP14 for 600 quid - still, got over 10 years of sailing pleasure with the missus out of her in spite of that.

East Coast, fantastic place to sail - forget the Crouch, get on the Blackwater Heed the advice and get bilge keels, you're bound to get stuck. Bradwell Marina seems like a nice place but there's also plenty of full-access swinging moorings on the north side for about a third of the price.

No-one suggesting a Hunter? Is it cos it's British? Why does it have to be French or German? Having said that, of the German boats I thought the Hanse 311/341 looked like excellent value despite the glossy finish - anyone got one or sailed one?

I'd be cautious about your budget for secondhand despite Twister_Kens good experience. I'd allow a reasonable amount for upgrade as you may find she needs some new sails, or new safety equipment, or the gas system is illegal and needs changing, or the engine needs a rebuild or the standing rigging need changing or...etc. Advice I saw said allow up to 50% of the purchase cost (depending on age/condition of course) to do up the things you may or may not see and *always* get a survey. Secondhand boat may have all the kit on board but it may be out of date and it may not be working!

Our current baby yacht surveyed well but yes I did spend 50% of the purchase price doing her up - mind you I haggled the price down before I parted with the readies

 

[Twister_Ken]

Wow

>Advice I saw said allow up to 50% of the purchase cost <

That's not a boat, it's a project.

There are plenty of good 2nd handers that are ready to sail away.

 

[FlyingSpud]

50% of the purchase price? Ok new sails 2k, new engine 5k, new rigging 1k odds and sods 1k = 9k and that assumes all of things are garbage and need renewing at once, where as, in fact, most people who own boats are always upgrading. If these things are dead, then the price would be correspondingly reduced

On the other hand I have heard people say the standard sails they got on a new benjenbav were absolute bottom of the line and needed replacing at once, and the same went for anchor, chain and so on. We all know that the extras on their price is where they make their profit.

I agree about GP14s though