First boat, big boat.

[BrianH]

In another thread on another forum, a newcomer to our noble sport seeks assurances on boating costs and what a £40K vessel will cost to keep. I dunno, but it does all seem odd to me. I suppose many come to sailing somewhat in the manner of that poster - I see them in my marina with yachts that were bought on something close to a whim with immediate gratification of buying something grand and big enough to accommodate the whole family as a first boat.

It's just that £40K sounds a lot for a first time buy - at least it does to this ancient who painfully crawled his way, hand over hand, up the boating ladder from dinghies through small cruisers to slightly larger ones. And all because, at a tender age, he witnessed a small open boat being superbly sailed into a Georgian Bay harbour in Canada - it came in fast, running before a gale of a wind and rounded up to a wall perfectly stationary to put a line ashore.

That scene is as vivid now as it was over 50 years ago. It blew my mind and I knew I had to sail. From that moment on I planned and schemed how I could do so; read every book I could find on sailing and the sea; got afloat on others' boats whenever I could and saved every penny that I could squirrel away from my modest salary - even selling everything and anything I could to build up a boat fund. I changed my job and reduced my career prospects just to be near the sea and a harbour where I dreamed I would moor my boat. And it worked, I did get my boat and the passion has never passed, even if my circumstances, boat and sailing area has.

Of course, times have changed and disposable incomes have risen exponentially since when I was young. But I wouldn't change anything - my small boat experiences taught me as nothing else could how wind and water react on a hull, how to competently sail and navigate long before modern technologies arrived to give us a precise position at the touch of a button.

I know I'm a relic who sounds as though I resent the changes - but I don't, I think it great that so many can now get afloat and take their families with them. But is it too easy, does it not attract some for all the wrong reasons? Wouldn't it be better for them to do it all more gradually - taking longer to learn it all more thoroughly?

Preparing to be shot down in flames for elitist tendencies, but interested in any thoughts on the subject ...

 

[Talbot]

I bought my first boat in 1987 for £20k - probably worth about the same or more than £40k now. This was because of an inheritance. A smaller boat was unacceptable to some members of the family! and occassional charter had been the only possible option until then.

 

[penfold]

I'm not sure what you are objecting to exactly but there are myriad positives of this phenomenon, not least the fact it supports companies that make new boats, supports marina/mooring providers and chandlers, and keeps a ready supply of used boats for us canny(or impecunious) oldtimers when they become disillusioned and sell up.

 

[sarabande]

I understand Barnacle's raised eyebrows. What concerns me is that some people who are able to buy into boating at an advanced (expensive) level have sudden charge of powerful machinery, and on a few occasions treat a boat like a car: ignition on, start, and WOT. Equally, we have seen on the forum how some new arrivals gain experience, through tuition and sharing, and then become 'safe' raggies or mobos within a very short time.

It might be intriguing to correlate RNLI rescues with 'level of experience' and see if there is a trend for new users to be subject of rescues more than sea dogs.

On second thoughts, perhaps not, because otherwise the governmunt might look hard at licensing and compulsory welding of pyrotechnics to people's ears.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I know someone whose first boat was a £700k motor boat with two huge 1000hp plus engines.

He skipped all the intro stuff and went straight in and did a Yachtmaster theory course. He learnt the practical stuff by going out with others with more experience.

He is now safe and competent.

Bottom line is he can afford it, so why not.

All that VAT he paid on purchase and fuel (it costs £20k or so to fill it up if I recall) supports our government in all their worthy causes.

 

[Litotes]

That scene is as vivid now as it was over 50 years ago. It blew my mind and I knew I had to sail. From that moment on I planned and schemed how I could do so; read every book I could find on sailing and the sea; got afloat on others' boats whenever I could and saved every penny that I could squirrel away from my modest salary - even selling everything and anything I could to build up a boat fund.

Oh, how familiar that sounds! My Eureka moment was rather different, though. Aged about five, I was walking along the quay of the yacht basin in Dover. Looking along a line of foredecks - mainly wooden - it came to me in a flash - that's it! that's what I want to do!

That set me on a course very similar to yours. First command was a beat up Firefly, bought with saved up pocket money, paper round money, Saturday and holiday job money and whatever monetary gifts might come my way at birthdays and Christmas. First "lidded" command was a beat up 22 foot wooden gaffer that was sold to me for £64 (£1 per share) It needed a lot of work.........

I share your sentiments. The gradual progression through lots of different boats of all shapes and sizes - my own and other people's - was a nautical education I wouldn't swap for anything. The sailing scene has changed out of all recognition during my sailing lifetime and, like you, I have no quarrel with that. I am sometimes taken aback by what people with spiffy yachts don't know, but there again, they are probably equally taken aback by my lack of knowledge about spiffy electronics, hi tech sails etc.

I'm quite content as a dinosaur and have no great interest in all the latest gear etc. and I don't think there is more fun to be had in a big, spiffy boat than in a small, simple one. Not in my experience anyway. However, it is much easier now for families to sail together, which is a huge benefit. Contentment has a lot to do with expectations and expectations have changed. Each to their own.

So, sir, if you are a relic, you are not alone.

 

[[70521]]

We all need to start somewhere. As one of my learned professors said, "The only stupid question is an unasked one", the poster was quite right to ask the question and I hope that the answers have been enlightening.

How do you know that the poster has not done everything that you have done, just they have not said as much?

I can't agree with you that £40,000 is a huge sum to spend. A new Audi A6 Quattro costs about the same and has much less accommodation and I understand there is a parking space up for sale in St Ives, Cornwall for £50,000, £40K for a boat sounds a much better investment.

 

[sighmoon]

I learned in dinghies as a teenager, which suited me at the time. However, a fireball would be a poor choice for sailing with two small kids and a tolerant wife. - 3 bedrooms, and a proper galley means everybody's happy.

Apart from parking it (eek), it's no harder.

 

[prv]

it supports companies that make new boats, supports marina/mooring providers and chandlers

Nothing against supporting boatbuilders or chandlers, but I often wish the money -> dazed kipper -> brand new 38-foot loft apartment crowd would support the marinas a bit less well, at least round here

Pete

 

[bbg]

At the risk of sounding mystical - we have each found our own path to boating, and no two paths are the same. I find it difficult to criticise others who have taken a different path to mine.

I have been know to criticise when our paths intersect with a crunch of fibreglass, but happily for me all of those time have ended with victory in the protest room.

Seriously, I really couldn't care less about what other people spend their money on if it doesn't affect me.

 

[[70521]]

At the risk of sounding mystical

+1

 

[Tranona]

The problem with the eureka as a child approach is that you can't recreate it completely if you are in your 40's and suddenly discover sailing. In that case your eureka moment is different and could just as easily be prompted by watching a family enjoy a cruise in their 35 footer, which prompts the "I think I might like a bit of that". Little point in going back to years of dinghy sailing and working your way up as it is quite feasible to start at a different level, particularly if you have the money.

My eureka moment was in my mid 20's on a 35 ft out of English Harbour Antigua, so you can imagine messing about in dinghies in a muddy estuary or a gravel pit had little appeal as the nest step on the road to owning a sea going cruiser.

 

[Litotes]

Little point in going back to years of dinghy sailing and working your way up as it is quite feasible to start at a different level, particularly if you have the money.

My eureka moment was in my mid 20's on a 35 ft out of English Harbour Antigua, so you can imagine messing about in dinghies in a muddy estuary or a gravel pit had little appeal as the nest step on the road to owning a sea going cruiser.

I agree entirely. Having been involved, both formally and informally in the business of helping people on their way into the sailing world, I think nothing beats the pleasure of seeing them "take off" as highly competent sailors. One of my favourite memories is of a retired headmaster and a retired vicar - lifelong friends - who took a notion to go sailing. I conducted them through what was then the RYA elementary certificate and a couple of years later they and their wives were having the time of their lives with a small cruiser somewhere in Somerset. And a woman who started sailing casually with me a few years ago is now skipper of her own 30 footer, whilst another has been around the world on the Clipper Race - something I have never done and never will.

It's a great pity and a great mistake to interpret, as some seem to do (not you) the appreciation some of us have for the route we have taken for denigration of other routes - especially now, when the sailing scene has changed so much.

As far as dinghies are concerned - well, it is a great way to learn to sail. But my preference is for both a cruising boat and a dinghy on a muddy estuary. Two different, but equal, sources of delight.

 

[Seajet]

Barnac1e,

I'm with you.

Frankly I've found there are 2 types of sailors; those who have learned on dinghies with their sensitivity to sail and ballast trim, and those who started on cruisers.

I am very wary of the latter, based on experience not instant prejudice !

Very few of these people go straight into sailing schools, if they do then great that's a big help, but for most it's understandably a case of 'not knowing how much you don't know'.

My father went into sailing late in life at about 50 when I somehow got the bug as a young boy and dragged him into it, our first boat being a 10' Caricraft gunter dinghy which we did a lot of sailing in.

When Dad eventually bought a Centaur years later, we were surprised to find she actually sailed quite well ( handling and feel on the tiller were hugely disappointing but that's different ) - Dad knows how to trim sails and boat thanks to his dinghy experience, and could sail her in and out of marinas in the event of prop' snags.

It seems the Centaurs' much maligned reputation as a poor sailing boat is mainly because a large proportion of owners were novices who'd gone straight into owning a 26' cruiser.

 

[Sailfree]

At the risk of sounding mystical - we have each found our own path to boating, and no two paths are the same. I find it difficult to criticise others who have taken a different path to mine.

+1

I always fancied sailing after reading Neville Shutes Book "Trustee from the Toolroom" as a young teenager. Thought of getting a short service commission in the Army then with gratutity after 9yrs buy a boat and go sailing round the world. The innocence of youth!! As an older teenager got girlfriend pregnant, got married etc etc. Should have joined the Army!! Young family , career, geting established etc took the next 25yrs!!

On second relationship in my late 40's realised how important it was for us to do something together so we started windsurfing then moved on to Dinghy sailing. At the back of my mind I remembered the original teenage dream. I bought a Wayfarer as advised it had all the controls of bigger boats. Got into racing it and never stopped. For our sins currently being punished with high winds doing Poole Week!

At back of our minds was thought of moving onto a bigger boat some time in the future, Did a Flotilla holiday that we both enjoyed. After a very wet and windy and cold regional racing event with SWMBO near to tears decided it was time to get a bigger boat. Bought a new 36' Dufour with all the Bells and Whistles and chartered it out through Hamble school of Yachting. Currently on third big boat a 43' Jeanneau but frankly we still get more pleasure racing the Wayfarer!! Pleasure for £ it cannot be beat.

As others have said each has its own route the majority determined through personal circumstances and finances. If you want SWMBO to enjoy it a modern 36' + is far more acceptable thought than a old 24'. I do love watching the grin of people on smaller boats when they are having a good sail on a sunny day - proving that ultimate pleasure is not determined by the thickness of your wallet! Oh well back to the Wayfarer - must do better in next race!!

 

[Seajet]

Sailfree,

reading your post it seems you followed the 'dinghies first' route I and others recommend.

'Trustee From The Toolroom', while a wonderful book like all of Nevil Shutes', might be considered an unusual inspiration; I'm not giving the story away when I mention it begins with a couple on an early blue water yacht piling onto a reef and being killed !

 

[Sailfree]

'Trustee From The Toolroom', while a wonderful book like all of Nevil Shutes', might be considered an unusual inspiration; I'm not giving the story away when I mention it begins with a couple on an early blue water yacht piling onto a reef and being killed !

How could I contemplate joining the Army or even now do 20k mls a year on a motorcycle unless I did not stupidly believe it would not happen to me!!

 

[AMCD300]

The Real Deal...

There are two types of drivers - 'real drivers' and 'flash Harry'. 'Real drivers' learned the hard way. They cut their teeth on a one-speed bicycle using only their legs to power up and down hills. They learned to take on the dreaded 'adverse camber' and survive, navigating the fabled 'magic roundabout' without getting a wobble on, and mastering the weekly 'unbalanced shopping in the basket' maneuver. My old Fanny swears she wouldn't go with someone who hasn't had a dirty trouser leg and a well-polished bell on their handlebars....

On the other hand, there are those flash 'upstarts' who chose to miss out two wheels altogether and go straight for four. Tut Tut. Have they ever had to repair a flat tire using only a piece of chalk, sandpaper and dried up puncture repair glue? I doubt it. Have they ever cut their teeth on a narrow cycle path? No fear. What, therefore, do they expect to know about the intricacies of driving. Will they be able to perform a flawless parallel park in the dark? Not without wrecking the perfect paint job on my car I can tell you. They wouldn't know a McPherson from a leaf spring.

As for me, I was taught everything I know by my Pa (Old Yellow Jersey they called him down at the 'club') on his 'hand-me-down' uni-cycle. There's nothing anyone can tell me about cycling. Mark my words - no good can come of anyone who hasn't had the pleasure of a tight, leather saddle and single wheel configuration between their legs.

I'm off to attend to my Fanny's blisters now......

 

[npf1]

But also consider looking at this another way ...

1/ get as much experience as possible on other people's boats - there's no cheaper way to sail!

2/ buy once and buy right. Swapping boats every few years is expensive - brokers fees, surveys, bringing the new boat up to the spec you want etc. The buy once, buy right mantra is applicable in many aspects of life, so why not boats?

My point is, is you have an ulitmate goal, perhaps bluewater cruising, it may well be much cheaper to get lots of experience whilst saving boat funds, then buy a suitable boat and then learn with it. By the time you cast off lines to go bluewater cruising, you'll have a boat you know well and haven't wasted lots of £ improving and then selling a string of smaller boats.

 

[jordanbasset]

But also consider looking at this another way ...

1/ get as much experience as possible on other people's boats - there's no cheaper way to sail!

2/ buy once and buy right. Swapping boats every few years is expensive - brokers fees, surveys, bringing the new boat up to the spec you want etc. The buy once, buy right mantra is applicable in many aspects of life, so why not boats?

My point is, is you have an ulitmate goal, perhaps bluewater cruising, it may well be much cheaper to get lots of experience whilst saving boat funds, then buy a suitable boat and then learn with it. By the time you cast off lines to go bluewater cruising, you'll have a boat you know well and haven't wasted lots of £ improving and then selling a string of smaller boats.

That was pretty much my route, although I did own 3 dinghies at different times in my teens and twenties. Managed to sail in a variety of boats, as well as chartering and flotilla holidays. Then bought our first proper big boat, at 40 foot not huge and easily manageable. In many ways find it easier and more forgiving at sea than the smaller boat.

Would also add sailing is not some mystic art you have to learn from the bottom up, you can jump in and get instruction/help at all levels.