First 27.7 lifting keel

Before buying a second hand one I want to know how is the lifting mechanism made and how to check it,even in France i am unable to find an owner who knows and even the local Bénéteau dealer doesnt know!!!
 
Top Tip; the first and best question to ask anyone selling ANY lift keel boat is ' and how do you maintain the keel plate and mechanism over winter ashore ? '

If the answer is a Homer Simpson style ' Huh ? ' think twice - and you are completely right wanting to know the mechanism, I'm surprised you can't get ANY info - I suppose there isn't an Owners Association ?
 
It would help if you described it. Is the keel like a a dagger board up and down, or is it on a pivot?

If a dagger then the likely mechanism is a jack. If it’s on a pivot then an arm that lifts it up.

Both are likely to work through gravity by opening a valve and then pumped up. It is also likely that the mechanism if remote has hoses and a reservoir.
Hydraulic systems can be very simple the biggest issue is old hoses and damaged seals. There must be an access to the system within the boat.
Work on it in winter, is put he boat on stands and drop the keel if it works. If not you may need to support it, disconnect the ram and let it down by hand. I would suggest stout lines and a winch.
 
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Ah that's informatve paulieraw,

so it's a vertical lift keel.

A few things to check with these - my 22' boat has a similar setup but obviously smaller and a manual keel winch.

_ side; such keels don't swing up if running aground so check for the normal grounding damage as in a fin keeler, but moreso; my boat has a big tufnol shock absorber in the aft edge of the keelcase so the tapered keel can't cheesewire into the casing / hull.

+ sides; Centre of Lateral Resistance stays in the same position fore and aft if the keel is part raised.

If an electric winch is fitted, it may well be necessary to run the engine when winching as the current draw could be quite high.

There MUST be a Plan B manual option on any sensible such set up.

I knew a 26' boat with an electrically raised keel, the microswitch when fully raised was stuck so it kept on winding, damaging the mechanism and slightly the hull.

A keel position indicator is vital somewhere, either visually in the cabin or a guage or sight of some kind in the cockpit.

Also worth checking how strongly the ballast bulb is attached to the plate, and how easily the plate may be replaced if / when it corrodes.

Swing keels on the other hand often - will suffer wear at the pivot pin and elongation of the pivot and lifting point holes on the keel.

So I prefer vertical lift keels, but we still don't know the details of the mechanism on this boat and if it can be checked relatively easily.
 
youen said:
Does somebody know how to have a look to the hydraulic jack used to lift the keel.thanks
Click to expand...
The 27.7 had an electric hydraulic pump mounted inside the cabin with a manual pump handle back up option. This operates a hydraulic ram which I think from memory was mounted inside a vertical brace tube at the front of the salon table. This then is connected to a wire strop which goes round a deck mounted pulley and can be seen going through a slot in the salon table to attach to keel. I think the ran works at a loss so that the movement of the keel is double the ram stroke. The Salon table hinges open to reveal the keel box. The keel when lifted is visible inside the cabin. It can only be lifted the maximum stroke of the ram. There is no need for a limit switch. The lowering is done by solenoid valve and is restrictor. The design is really only suitable for either lifted or lowered positions. There were issues with problems of the locking mechanism failing on early boats . It is a while ago but I seem to remember they had straps that had to be bolted across the top of the keel once it was lowered. Straps and threads were stripping or failing. The Keel is a composite structure with a lead bulb which is a bit of an unknown quantity. I came to the conclusion that the lift keel version was a liability rather than an asset. Having that weight hanging on a wire with no secondary locking is an accident waiting to happen. I rejected it as a practical trailable lift keeler suitable for a typical sheltered half tide berth or anchorages in our area. Especially as like the Anderson it needs legs to dry out upright except in deep smelly mud. I will possibly meet the owner of one this weekend. I know he has had to replace the rudder which had also failed with horizontal crack just below the lower pintle on both sides of the laminate. Possible design weakness here also. Everything was very flimsy on this boat. I didn't like the way the cockpit side flexed when you braced a foot against it to pull on a sheet.
 
Manyt thanks all I understand how it works but want to know if its easy or not to check thé hydraulic jack and the lifting strop.its incroyable in France its seems that nobody check this importants parts.I know that some boats had lost their rudder after the failure by electrolysis of thé lower part or the rudder hinge mix of alloy and stainless under waterline
 
youen said:
Manyt thanks all I understand how it works but want to know if its easy or not to check thé hydraulic jack and the lifting strop.its incroyable in France its seems that nobody check this importants parts.I know that some boats had lost their rudder after the failure by electrolysis of thé lower part or the rudder hinge mix of alloy and stainless under waterline
Click to expand...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=f...hWLL8AKHbc7CV4Q9QEIXDAG#imgrc=FepdIfPZN-eN9M:
search

This picture shows the keel down and the locking straps.
I cant find any pictures of the ram and strop connection but I am more than convinced it is contained in the vertical bracing tube at the aft end of the salon table which was removable for gaining access to the ram and strop.
I would not be worried about the hydraulics the main concern is the integrity of the lifting wire strop. We had a similar arrangement on a Trapper TS240. The hydraulics were sound and never needed any maintenance other than checking for leaks from seals , pipes and joints. We perhaps topped up the hydraulic oil once in our ownership and this was as result of failure of a seal on the manual back up pump that was over 30 years old!.

Failure of the strop would cause the heavy keel to free fall and possibly take out the entire bottom mounting and keel box structure with it!

I made sure that I replaced the strop every 2 years.

I also never left the boat unattended without having a secondary means of taking the load and locking the keel in the lifted position. This was done by sliding a stainless bar through the sides of the keel box and a larger thru-hole in the keel and lowering the keel until it was fully supported by the bar when raised.

Removable Binnacle?https://www.xboat.uk/photos/max/maxf/first-27.7_6_1418128038.jpg

I don't think the 27.7 has any provision other than the strop for supporting the keel. Risky if strop maintenance has been a low priority.
There is a removable binnacle on the deck covering the deck head pulley. If removed it would allow viewing of the strop as the keel is raised or lowered to check for fraying strands but that would probably mean the strop was close to failure!. I am guessing, but I would think the entire deck head pulley, brace tube and ram and strop assembly can be removed once the strop is unshackled from keel by taking it through the hole covered by the deck head binnacle. Cable integrity of stainless wire has always been difficult to assess just ask any rigger!. It is easier to follow a planned replacement routine IMHO to avoid sleepless nights and a potential sinking! I can understand your concern to find out exactly how to maintain the strop!

Steve
 
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Many thanks I think you are right an its a pity that Beneteau tell a world about the maintenance scheme in the owner book or anywhere !!!!
 
Please note,

TSB240 makes a point of never agreeing with me about anything, even mud is the wrong mud - but I think it fair to say we probably came to the same conclusion about this keel set-up; speaking for myself with 40 years on my A22 and a touch more observing other boats' systems I do not fancy this one ! :)
 
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Hello all. Does anyone have experience with a Beneteau 27.7 with a lift keel on a mooring? We have a relatively shallow mooring in the upper end of Poole Harbour (Lake Yard).
The B27.7 with keel down draws 2.1m, with the keel up only about 60cm which is plenty deep enough for the mooring. I'm not certain whether the boat would be sufficiently stable to keep on a mooring with the keel and the rudder retracted. (that leaves the bulb tucked up under the hull but the keel itself above the waterline).
 
This design requires legs to support the boat when drying. It needs these to protect the saildrive and rudder and support the boat as it has a large external bulb.

I would suggest this very lightly built boat is only designed for occasional beaching in pleasant conditions with legs it is totally unsuited to a permanent drying mooring.
 
TSB240 said:
This design requires legs to support the boat when drying. It needs these to protect the saildrive and rudder and support the boat as it has a large external bulb.

I would suggest this very lightly built boat is only designed for occasional beaching in pleasant conditions with legs it is totally unsuited to a permanent drying mooring.
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It isn't a drying mooring, but it does need the keel and rudder to be retracted for the mooring. My question is whether the boat is stable in that position.
 
WorcesterMan said:
It isn't a drying mooring, but it does need the keel and rudder to be retracted for the mooring. My question is whether the boat is stable in that position.
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We had a good friend with the lift keel 27.7 around 2010 and having a smaller lift keel Hunter Delta 25 at the time I was very interested in the design and went on the boat a few times. I recall that it has most of its righting moment in a lead bulb at the end of the keel that can not be retracted into the hull. This means that on a mooring with the lift keel up it still has pretty good righting moment and in the shelter of Poole harbour I would not hesitate to leave it on a mooring with the keel up. The Hull shape also has a fair amount of hull form stability. We used to leave our Delta 25 on a drying mooring in Chichester harbour with the keel up and that was considerably less stable than a first 27.7!
One thing you want to avoid is hitting the bottom with the keel half up, this wedges the keel in the slot and makes it very hard to free it. Our friends discovered that the hard way!
I know of at least 1 other lift keel First 27.7 that runs out of Parkstone so you may be able to find the owner of that boat if you try for more information.
 
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