Finding Sanctuary: Planning Marine Conservation Zones in the south-west

[sarabande]

it's a policy of divide and rule. If FS can say "we had 483 replies from the leisure sector" they can say have done their job of consulting the public.

The RYA seems to be acting in a pretty supine way over these zones - at least I don't notice much in the way of communication from them.

The meetings (e.g. N Devon) were not well attended, and did not benefit from extensive regional pre-publicity.


How many people on these forums ? 5 thousand ? 10 thousand. It's a classic case of united we stand, divided we fall. We should have organised as a strong competent coherent committed group, rather than witter away as weak, low impact individuals.

 

[Pye_End]

Having looked at the Balanced Seas www, I find that all the local meetings have already taken place, with the exception of one on the IOW. A meeting at 1800 on a Monday in Southampton is not exactly convenient for many sailors, who may use Hampshire waters, but who live away from the coast.

I wonder whether the lack of publicity for these events (until it was too late) is a deliberate tactic?

I've written to Balanced Seas, asking for a London meeting. I'm not holding my breath.

The meeting at Canterbury last night was reasonably well attended - plenty of fishermen, and other interested bodies, but only 3 leasure boaters (and one leasure diver). It must have been reasonably well publiced for these people, but not so good for the leisure side. Felt it was less relevant for me (not representing anybody) to be there, although all were welcome and it is good to hear what they have to say directly and not through somebody else.

The main purposes of the meeting (apart from to tell us what the project was about) was for them to get an understanding on how to subdivide the area into smaller focus groups, issues involved in these choices, and how the interested parties should be represented. Certainly get the impression that they want people from the different areas to be well represented, but it is apparent that it will be difficult. The RYA is an obvious place to get representation for our leisure, but hopefully there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss issues with them.

They were asked to provide a copy of the presentation on disk, which did not seem to be a problem, so if you want to know the sorts of things discussed then maybe you could ask them for a copy.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I have a problem with all this.
I am aware of a site of special scientific interest that is not being policed properly.An associated site of environmental habitat,the trees of which have tree preservation orders on them was hacked about with the say so if not connivance of the Council & here we have yet more bureaucracy.
If there is a problem with scallop dredgers & "dark water" that I presume to mean pollution why the hell is'nt the Government just giving the policing authority whoever they are more teeth in order to be able to deal with it instead of just bogging us down in more bureaucracy & giving plenty more jobsworth something to tinker with & muck about?
The RYA are a snooty body that I certainly would'nt presume to be able to join nor do I think anyone else is speaking up on my behalf.
I am all for marine conservation if it means getting to grip with the appalling scallop dredging that I have seen going on & fisherman highlights but all this bureaucracy just looks like more window dressing masking the underlying problems which is too many people & unrestricted development on land.

 

[Pye_End]

I have a problem with all this.
I am aware of a site of special scientific interest that is not being policed properly.An associated site of environmental habitat,the trees of which have tree preservation orders on them was hacked about with the say so if not connivance of the Council & here we have yet more bureaucracy.
If there is a problem with scallop dredgers & "dark water" that I presume to mean pollution why the hell is'nt the Government just giving the policing authority whoever they are more teeth in order to be able to deal with it instead of just bogging us down in more bureaucracy & giving plenty more jobsworth something to tinker with & muck about?
The RYA are a snooty body that I certainly would'nt presume to be able to join nor do I think anyone else is speaking up on my behalf.
I am all for marine conservation if it means getting to grip with the appalling scallop dredging that I have seen going on & fisherman highlights but all this bureaucracy just looks like more window dressing masking the underlying problems which is too many people & unrestricted development on land.

The problem of policing was brought up. One particular concern was the mechanism to stop foreign vessels ignoring the areas. They did not have an answer to these, only that it was beyond their remit. It is probably more appropriate to bring this up with your MP, together with setting up such a combersome and expensive vehicle to help look after our seas.


Concerning representation, if you have any better ideas than being represented by the RYA then they will listen to you. I have no idea why you think you cannot join the RYA- would have thought anybody providing the appropriate cash would be welcome. The quality of representation will presumably depend on the individual was given the task in the local area. I cannot see why you cannot deal with the rep directly even if not a member of the RYA as they are there to represent pleasure boaters - not just RYA members. There are obviosly other bodies that could represent, but none that is so comprehensive. Understandably they do not want the meetings to become too cumbersome as there will be a considerable quantity of interested parties as it is. The point about the representative having a mandate to represent was also brought up, although how this could be done is unclear to me.

 

[Plevier]

Having looked at the Balanced Seas www, I find that all the local meetings have already taken place, with the exception of one on the IOW. A meeting at 1800 on a Monday in Southampton is not exactly convenient for many sailors, who may use Hampshire waters, but who live away from the coast.

I wonder whether the lack of publicity for these events (until it was too late) is a deliberate tactic?

I've written to Balanced Seas, asking for a London meeting. I'm not holding my breath.

The website says there was one at the Resource Centre, University of Sussex, earlier in the week. I don't know how/if it was publicised. I work at the Univ and I saw no signs for it, it was not in our events list, and I know of no venue on campus called the Resource Centre!

I have contacted Balanced Seas to query this and ask to be kept informed.

 

[Danny Jo]

Given Scuttlebutt's track record for carefully considered, logically argued and politely stated opinion, I am impressed by the trouble that Finding Sanctuary has taken to inform us of the opportunities available to influence the outcome.

I would like to add two things to Twister Ken's post: firstly to point out that there are many recreational boaters (and I suspect also many who make their living from marine activity) who support and applaud conservation efforts based on sound scientific evidence; secondly to suggest, a little timidly perhaps, that even the proud denizens of Scuttlebutt don't know it all and may damage the marine environment, albeit unknowingly. (Pompous? You've got it - marks out of ten, please.)

I would add, in Scuttlebutt's defence, that it was here that I learnt, among other things, that using washing-up liquid to disperse spilled diesel fuel exacerbates the harm to marine life.

 

[Finding Sanctuary]

I want to try to explain the different types of marine protected area designations and the processes by which they are decided, as it is a confusing area and there are different things happening at the same time.

The UK has signed up to international agreements that aim to establish an ‘ecologically coherent network of marine protected areas’ by 2012. This means the marine protected area network will be a collection of areas that work together to provide more benefits than an individual area could on its own. The UK is currently working on creating ecological guidelines - i.e. what species and habitats need to be protected and to what extent to make this a true network.

In the UK we have several types of existing marine protected areas giving different levels of protection. However, on their own they do not make up a coherent network so a new designation – a Marine Conservation Zone - has been introduced through the Marine and Coastal Access Act. Marine Conservation Zones will be put in place to protect nationally important and representative habitats and species and will work together with the existing marine protected areas to form the network.

In the south-west new Special Areas of Conservation have recently been proposed by Natural England. The European Habitats Directive does not permit socio-economic impacts to influence the choice of these sites or their boundaries. The UK as a member state must identify the sites and boundaries based only on the presence of habitats and bird populations supplied in the Directive.

At the same time, the Finding Sanctuary project is planning the new Marine Conservation Zones in the south-west. Socio-economics will be taken into account during decision-making and sea users will be involved in this open planning process from start to finish. This means that Marine Conservation Zones can be planned in a way that minimises impacts to sea users. We will ensure that the conservation benefits these sites already provide towards the network of marine protected areas are taken into account during the planning of Marine Conservation Zones. From our perspective, if Marine Conservation Zones are to be viable, they must be capable of delivering clear benefits for nature conservation, whilst minimising the impact to stakeholders and they must be broadly accepted and supported by all stakeholders.

People are often not aware that these are separate designations and that the methods by which they are identified are so different. It is unfortunate that these two different processes are occurring in the south-west at the same time. All we can do is explain the differences between them, and show people where they do have opportunities to influence the outcomes.

The JNCC have produced a useful document about the different types of marine protected areas in the UK which you can see here.

 

[fisherman]

.deleted

 

[sarabande]

FS

I'm grateful to you for the explanations, but I believe you are too close to the action and so familiar with the terminology, that you do not realise the agencies involved are winning the 'minds' but not the 'hearts'. The impression I have is of some European administrative juggernaut which is -quite rightly - focussed on

preventing further damage to the maritime environment,
trying to restore the bio-diversity
encourage sustainability of use by an often conflicting userbase.

FS and its associated organisations (which is the lead one please ?) are hydra-like arising all over the place, with functions and responsibilities duplicated, messages cased in jargon, platitudes everywhere ("they must be broadly accepted and supported by all stakeholders". Just examine what happens if some stakeholders do not accept one of your proposals; does the entire house of cards come tumbling down ?)


You indicate clearly such a conflict over the use of socio-economic impacts by the European Habitats Directive and the FS's Marine Conservation Zones.
Which has primacy ?

The delivery of public consultancy on the Marine Conservation Zones is laughable. This forum probably represents more interested parties and users of the MCZs than any other single organisation (RYA included). Meetings have not been really published widely and loudly; there's no clear timetable for the whole process, and the FS gives an impression that it is reacting to events, rather than leading them.

I mentioned 'hearts and minds'. The scientific basis for needing change in management style and methodologies of our littoral and sub-littoral environment is beyond doubt. You have to balance the seahorse huggers with the recreational sailors, and fishermen, divers, speedboat racers. It is not, and never will be an easy task. I believe that you need to be more proactive in telling people the results of research projects, analysis of experiments (such as no-anchor, no-fish areas), and political decisions in a clearer and less obfuscatory way (see what I mean ?). The medium is the message. The message is not getting through to the people in language that is clear and unequivocal.

Call it public relations, or propaganda management if you wish; the sea and our historical, social, sporting, and commercial relationship with it requires more conversation to improve conservation.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

I have been fighting to try & preserve a wonderful environment that I enjoy.In the course of this action I have come into contact with the local Environmental Health Department.The Department specializing in "Bio Diversity" that if I remember was associated with English Nature.The "Arboculturalist.""Natural England."The Environment Agency.The Queens Harbour Master Portsmouth.My local MP & still the destruction continues (did I mention the local Police).Beaurocracy alone is just not enough.....
I am sure there are a lot of well meaning people out there but they themselves need co-ordinating.
If & when that happens I willl be more impressed.
Damn I forgot local & regional planning agency's & my local Councillors,we are doomed!

 

[Twister_Ken]

"Marine and Coastal Access Act"

Marine and Coastal Denial of Access Act, surely?

 

[sea urchin]

The RYA has its interpretation of the Coastal and Marine Access Act in its Cruising News November 2009. It also states its position and how it has influenced the process so far.

Here is the link:

http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/enewsletters/Cruising%20news/november/Pages/marinebill.aspx?utm_source=CruisingNews&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=nov09

It seems the RYA already has the ear of some of the decision makers, so no harm in giving it some more ammo to use on our behalf.

 

[sarabande]

I am happy to learn that the RYA has an influencing hand on the process. What concerns me is how representative that organisation is of the mass of sea users, and whether the management is too enmeshed in being "The Yachting Establishment" to have the appetite for a really good struggle.

I should add some of my best sailing friends are members, and hold similar views about the RYA oligarchy.

 

[Mudplugger]

RYA Representation:

From my own experience, the regional councils of the RYA are representative of the area's within the region, with most of the affiliated clubs/organisations electing members to serve on the regional c'ttee's.

Any matters arising from within the region, that can be considered to have a national impact will be forwarded to the national c'ttee with appropriate reccomendations:

Ergo: the members of affiliated clubs, personal members, and other organisations representing water users, do have the opportunity to influence area, regional and national policy:

Water users that decline to join clubs/organisations/etc., obviously do NOT have the facility to influence such decisions, unless they contact the area/ regional reps. on a personal basis.

In the Eastern Region e.g, BACSPA, Colne & Blackwater, BJRC, Crouch SF,Thames, Broads, Orwell, Norfolk & Suffolk et al are all represented on the regional cttee.

HTH

 

[sarabande]

thanks MudP, i knew that sort of democratic representation would figure strongly in the hierarchical structure. I am correct in also assuming that one has to be a member of the RYA to raise matters of concern at a regional council ? It does sound from your paras 2 and 3, as if the RYA is presuming to be the primary and rightful vector for consultation. That would make me rather unhappy.

Someone in the RYA should know what sort of % of ALL the sailing, boating, jetski, surfboard, fishing, other water users, are members of the RYA. In other words, is the RYA a proper and effective representative of the total water user body ? Are these marketing figures available to the public ?

I'm not knocking the RYA as a "system" or political entity (though feelings have run pretty high in here before), I am interested in finding out whether Finding Sanctuary or whoever is the top decision making organisation is getting a full and truly representative picture of the views of the water users. The consultative mechanism at present seems clumsily composed and somewhat parochial.

Logically I suppose there is no reason why non-water users should not also be involved in the process, e.g. any landbound person who looks at the sea from a beach, or who in a pub in Banbury drinks beer with a head raised by alginates farmed in Cornwall.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Another area of concern, when it comes to influence, is the make up of the regional bodies proposing marine control zones. Taking "Balanced Seas" as an example, its board members are either local authority bureaucrats or conservationists. Not a sole representative of shipping, fishing, diving or leisure boating. Balanced Seas is responsible for proposing zones from Hampshire all the way around to Suffolk.

Balanced Seas Board

Linda Davies (Chair), Kent County Council
Elizabeth Holliday, Kent County Council
Douglas MacMillan, Durrell Institute for Conservation and Ecology, University of Kent
Chris McMullon, Natural England
Ingrid Chudleigh, Natural England
Jon Davies, Joint Nature Conservation Committee
Sue Wells, Balanced Seas

One wonders what the recruitment process was, where (if) positions were advertised, etc.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

Water users that decline to join clubs/organisations/etc., obviously do NOT have the facility to influence such decisions, unless they contact the area/ regional reps. on a personal basis.

I just want to state for the record that though I have lived in my current location (which will remain secret so that I do not embarrass anyone myself included) for about ten years & that though this region has an active boat/sailing club.I have never been invited to join & have never seen invitations for new members to join anywhere.
I have been as active as anyone & probably a lot more active than most of it's members in & around Portsmouth from observation.
I know next to nothing about the RYA except that they seem like another snobby organization similar to the Royal Southern Yacht Club where I grew up in Bursledon knocking about on the banks of the Hamble river.All these organizations seem hierarchical & as ken rightly points out are not truly representative of the general public at large.

 

[sea urchin]

We need our interests represented at Brussels. The conservationists are very successful at lobbying at European level, and then national laws have to comply with the dictats from the Continent.

So who best to lobby on our behalf? How can we influence Europe? Perhaps we should study the tactics of the conservation lobby to ensure that boaters interests are taken seriously too.

We do need to stop the wanton destruction of sensitive marine habitats, but where is the sense of proportion? Most boaters, local fishermen, local residents etc, are the very people who are interested in protecting the marine environment, but may need information and encouragement. Save the draconian European measures for the vandals of the sea (do they come from Europe perchance?).

For a good example, look no further than Pagham Harbour (near Selsey Bill), though I am sure it is not unique. Pagham Harbour Nature Reserve and the community nearby were good neighbours to each other, until the arrival of European nature conservation policies. Since recently becoming a European Marine Site, a Special Protection Area (for birds), a Ramsar site, and part of Natura 2000, the pantomime has begun. Not only have local residents had to fight to have the right of navigation into Pagham harbour acknowledged, but judging by this week’s local paper, they have also had to fight for the shingle needed for flood defenses. Apparently it is required for birds to nest. There is plenty of shingle (much recently deposited through the longshore drift) – one might think plenty for nests and defenses.

Then, guess what! The birds and their nests are protected by (European) law, whilst people’s homes are not protected from flooding by (any) law. Now to top it all, the local council is thinking of handing the Reserve, European designations included, to the RSPB!

There are already a myriad of conservation designations affecting the marine areas, and now to complicate matters we have the Marine and Coastal Access Act. It is a legal nightmare (or a lawyers dream).

And how does all this European marine conservation legislation fit in with international maritime law, and international rights of navigation? The mind boggles.

 

[Woodlouse]

I've read everything so far, but taken in very little. If it hasn't already been asked and answered then here are my questions.

What sort of restrictions are these MCZ going to involve for those who use the area for either business or pleasure? Will it be a blanket ban on everything, or subjective depending on each and every case? Will a zone be split up with different actions being possible in different areas depending on the microenvironment?

And also, how is it all going to be enforced?

 

[glashen]

I have never been invited to join & have never seen invitations for new members to join anywhere.
I have been as active as anyone & probably a lot more active than most of it's members in & around Portsmouth from observation.
I know next to nothing about the RYA except that they seem like another snobby organization similar to the Royal Southern Yacht Club where I grew up in Bursledon knocking about on the banks of the Hamble river.All these organizations seem hierarchical & as ken rightly points out are not truly representative of the general public at large.

I've just done a internet trawl and the majority of Yacht and Sailing Clubs websites state that they welcome new members. Are you saying you want Yacht clubs to act like Electricity Suppliers and push application forms under your nose. Speaking about my own Club "Christchurch Sailing Club" we certainly welcome applications, we do meet prospective members and we do have a probationary period, mainly since we restrict new memberships to active sailors. I am aware of some non club members sailing in the harbour, and I assume they choose not to join, it is in the end a personal choice. But I hope not many have the prejudice that all Yacht and Sailing Clubs are snobby places not for them. Club membership is what you make it.