Filling propane bottles

[nicholat]

Hi - we currently have a US 9kg propane cylinder that came with our boat (which we bought in America) but as we're based in the UK we switched to the red Calor Gas propane cylinders.

Due to the size of our gas box we can only fit the 3.9kg red bottles in which seem to be going up in price every month. As we live aboard a 3.9kg bottle lasts just under a month.

We've seen adaptors that in theory will allow us to fill the US cylinder at an autogas filling station. However, from what I've read so far filling these at UK filling stations is a bit of a no-no unless they are fixed in place such as would be in a caravan.

So it seems we're stuck with the Calor whilst in the UK. However, this summer we're leaving the UK and planning on cruising through Denmark and Sweden and then on to the Med in 2011.

We don't want to waste money on buying the wrong bottles or adaptors and was wondered what other peoples' experience is with the following:
- getting propane tanks filled in Scandanavian countries
- getting propane tanks filled in Mediterranean countries
- getting propane tanks filled in the UK (so allowing us to use our US propane cylinder)

Many thanks,
Nichola
Yacht Emerald

 

[ebo]

Hi,
we've been in the med for 5 years. Portugal to Greece. Plenty of Camping Gaz around in garages, supermarkets and chandlers but not much propane. If you keep your calor propane bottles there is no guarantee that gas refilling station will have a connector or the will to refill. Can you change to butane? If so I would change to Camping Gaz before leaving UK. Hope this helps,

ebo

 

[ebo]

p.s. Welcome to the forum.

ebo

 

[theguerns]

propane

Hi - we currently have a US 9kg propane cylinder that came with our boat (which we bought in America) but as we're based in the UK we switched to the red Calor Gas propane cylinders.

Due to the size of our gas box we can only fit the 3.9kg red bottles in which seem to be going up in price every month. As we live aboard a 3.9kg bottle lasts just under a month.

We've seen adaptors that in theory will allow us to fill the US cylinder at an autogas filling station. However, from what I've read so far filling these at UK filling stations is a bit of a no-no unless they are fixed in place such as would be in a caravan.

So it seems we're stuck with the Calor whilst in the UK. However, this summer we're leaving the UK and planning on cruising through Denmark and Sweden and then on to the Med in 2011.

We don't want to waste money on buying the wrong bottles or adaptors and was wondered what other peoples' experience is with the following:
- getting propane tanks filled in Scandanavian countries
- getting propane tanks filled in Mediterranean countries
- getting propane tanks filled in the UK (so allowing us to use our US propane cylinder)

Many thanks,
Nichola
Yacht Emerald

Be carefull we live aboard in Europe all the time and can tell you that European boats are NOT alowed to have Propane on them only butane

 

[Petronella]

We also have US propane bottles, now in the Med. It is always tricky but so far we have always managed. If we did not have such large bottles that rarely require filling (once a year) or they did not fit so snuggly into their box then we would probably change to Camping Gas here.

We have put together various fillers/connectors/adapters and can fill from LPG autogas stations or from the commercial gas fillers if we can find them.

Just got our bottles refilled yesterday in Preveza, Greece so that's us sorted for another year. It wasn't easy though - it never is - you need time in a place and to talk to the locals.

 

[vyv_cox]

You are correct about filling bottles on forecourts. Most countries will not allow it, especially Spain and Italy, where self-service is less common and the attendant will not do it. In UK it is also not allowed, although you might get away with it if nobody sees you on a self-serve forecourt. Bottles are routinely refilled in Holland and Germany, although it may be difficult to find just where. I had lived in Holland for five years before I found the local refiller! Don't know about Scandinavian countries. Autogas has very limited availability in Greece, only a few garages in the Athens area have it.

As said above, Camping Gaz is pretty universal in much of Europe so you may be best going with that.

Boats in Europe not allowed to have propane aboard is news to me. I know loads that do.

 

[nicholat]

We have put together various fillers/connectors/adapters and can fill from LPG autogas stations or from the commercial gas fillers if we can find them.

Thanks for all the advice.

John and Gill - what type of connectors do you have to fill the US bottles?

We're now thinking that a dual Camping Gas / US bottles system is how we'll go as we have 2 leads from our regulator so will adapt 1 for camping gas. Our US cylinders should last us 3 months each and we have 2 of them. We can then use them up and whilst trying to find somewhere to fill them keep a couple of camping gas bottles to use in the meantime. If we can't find any autogas we'll just keep getting the camping gas refilled.

How long does a 2.7kg camping gas typically last?

 

[vyv_cox]

How long does a 2.7kg camping gas typically last?

For us, two people, two burners, grill and oven, around one month. We carry two bottles in the gas locker and sometimes a third in the lazarette.

Check prices in the countries you are visiting before buying the bottles. They vary enormously, France and UK being high. Holland used to be cheaper but I left six years ago so don't know now. The gas is far cheaper in Spain, Italy and Greece than in UK and France. Buy in camping shops (and supermarkets when in Europe) rather than chandleries, if convenient.

 

[changeman]

Met some Aussis in Port St Louis who found a couple of abandoned gas bottles and proceeded to decant the contents into to their own bottles via a connecting hose.
Not for the faint hearted!

 

[jmac]

A couple of points from personal experience that may help you.

We had our boat commissioned from new last year with Propane - the red Calor ones. We did not try to refill seriously since we only ran out of the 1st bottle on the way to the Canaries. In the canaries, they would only offer to sell an 11kg bottle of propane. Happily this has a uk Butane screw adaptor on it. We decanted some into our small bottles and connected the large bottle to our main system. (We have an enormous gas locker). We are still using the large bottle 4 months later and the small bottles are untouched apart from occasional BBQ use.

To be honest, I'd take the easier if more expensive Camping Gaz route you have suggested unless you are going to the Caribbean where you can get your Calor gas bottles refilled easily.

 

[SeamanStaines]

Met some Aussis in Port St Louis who found a couple of abandoned gas bottles and proceeded to decant the contents into to their own bottles via a connecting hose.
Not for the faint hearted!

This is not as bad as it sounds. It is not a gas, it is liquid at this stage (hence the term LPG) and it only becomes gas as it is released from the relativly low pressure of the cylinder (about 7bar or 100psi). Providing you make sure that the two connectors fit properly and you invert the full cylinder above the empty one the liquid will transfer. Many cars run on LPG and the liquid is simply transfered with a pump.

The only crucial part is to make sure you dont overfill the receiving cylinder. This is because LPG in its liquid form expands significantly with heat and if there is no room for that expansion it will easily split the cylinder which is not designed to withstand the hydraulic pressure (this is why cylinders explode in fires). You do this by weighing the cyinder as you fill it and ensure you dont put in more than 80% of the availalble volume.

You can fill a lot of 6kg's from a 47 ;-)

 

[sarabande]

what sort of piping do you use to connect the two cylinders, please ? Is the orange tubing OK, or does it have to be copper/other metal.

And how do you 'vent' the receiving bottle?

 

[dratsea]

And how do you 'vent' the receiving bottle?

If you are doing this in the garden then orange tubing is more than adequate. You may need to vent if the receiving bottle has air in it or if you are trying to get butane into a bottle with residual propane but even in these situations it will eventually transfer. Can speed it up by having the donor bottle upside down, higher and in the sun with the receiving bottle in shade but do take note of the dangers of overfilling, weigh carefully. You can swap last bit back by switching position of bottles but if in doubt just vent a bit of your propane to air before taking onto the boat.

 

[sarabande]

before I create an LPG explosion that wipes out my village (no, that idea is tempting [irony one] ), a followup question please.

I have various propane and butane bottles, large and small, empty and full. I don't collect them, they just occur in my life.

Firstly, I am not going to be so daring as to decant propane into butane, or t'other way round. The snag to me seems to be the regulator. I'd thought of these devices as being a sort of one-way valve. The use of (new) orange tube means that I need a regulator on each bottle to be able to use the orange tubing, so...

...setting up the donor and recipient bottles as suggested, can I "just" join the regulators together with orange tube, and control the flow with the tap on each cylinder ?

Can the process really be as mechanically simple as that, or do I need to make up flanged unions with various threads, L and R hand, and an 8mm spigot for the tubing ?

 

[SeamanStaines]

...setting up the donor and recipient bottles as suggested, can I "just" join the regulators together with orange tube, and control the flow with the tap on each cylinder ?

Can the process really be as mechanically simple as that, or do I need to make up flanged unions with various threads, L and R hand, and an 8mm spigot for the tubing ?

You need to connect the bottles directly together without any regulators in the way. Its easy to get propane connectors to do this, some UK butane connectors are a little more challanging to get without regulators.

 

[jmac]

Sarabande,

I am no authority on the decanting and I took my info from Calder's book.

However, never put propane into a butane cylinder. (lower pressure butane cylinder - may wipe out your village along with yourself.

Regulators are not involved. The regulator drops the pressure so the gas is gas! When you decant you are decanting (for the most part) liquid. That's one of the reasons it is, in my opinion only for use as a last resort.

You can really only do it in any degree of safety if you can buy a connector that does not go through a regulator. There are very few devices that are sold for the purpose that have these connectors. Roofing contractors use blowtorches to melt on roofing - very high output required.

If you are not completely confident in handling gas, do not even attempt it.

P.S. Anyone want a propane blowtorch less connector

 

[sailor22]

propane

You will note that US Propane bottles (at least modern ones which are all they are allowed to sell over there now) are fitted with an overfill protection device ( a float valve) which shuts of the filling line at the correct point. However, a wise virgin will also have her scales nearby!

With a properly made up hose, the US bottle can be filled from another inverted into it as described above. But you need to know what you are doing and I do not advocate it.

Calor will fill your US bottles in this country for a filling fee and so much per litre of LPG, so for UK boats with US systems like mine, that is what I would recommend strongly, against the DIY approach.

PS - I am on the look out for some 10lb Aluminum US Propane Gas Bottles if anyone has got any they wish to get rid of.

 

[dratsea]

before I create an LPG explosion that wipes out my village (no, that idea is tempting [irony one] ), a followup question please.

I have various propane and butane bottles, large and small, empty and full. I don't collect them, they just occur in my life.

Firstly, I am not going to be so daring as to decant propane into butane, or t'other way round. The snag to me seems to be the regulator. I'd thought of these devices as being a sort of one-way valve. The use of (new) orange tube means that I need a regulator on each bottle to be able to use the orange tubing, so...

...setting up the donor and recipient bottles as suggested, can I "just" join the regulators together with orange tube, and control the flow with the tap on each cylinder ?

Can the process really be as mechanically simple as that, or do I need to make up flanged unions with various threads, L and R hand, and an 8mm spigot for the tubing ?

Having watched bottles refilled with the operator tugging on his cheroot and the cloud of vented propane enveloping the tuk-tuk with its magneto fired engine still running: your village on the moors is probably safe!

Join has to be tank to tank no regulators. You can buy the male tank fitting with a short tube to male (often 3/8" fitting) to connect tank to bulkhead mounted regulator, often via a tap to switch between tanks. Look around, should not need to buy roofing flame thower!

Next both US and EU propane has a POL reverse thread fitting, female on the tank. Each type of male fitting will screw into both types of female fitting.... but they are not the same. One is a Bullnose, the other straight. You will get a seal with the one on both types of female fittings, but the other will only give a good seal on the correct female fitting. Hope that makes sense.

Lastly the "new" (circa 2005) US tanks with a float valve fitted have a different fitting with the thread on the outside of the female fitting on the tank and a collar on the male fitting which goes around the top of the tank.

So much easier with petrol, we all do it but, as someone has already pointed out, probably a lot more dangerous.

 

[johnabbott893]

Sarabande,

However, never put propane into a butane cylinder. (lower pressure butane cylinder - may wipe out your village along with yourself.

Urban Myth!

The vapour pressure of butane is about 30psi, which is about what you put in your car tyres. The vapour pressure of propane is about 100psi, just over what I put in my bicycle tyres. A steel container to sustain an internal pressure of 100psi is paper thin. LPG cylinders are manufactured to withstand rough handling, including bouncing down the road. The forces involved are a completely different order of magnitude to those for the vapour pressure. Thus, the cylinders are not designed around the vapour pressure forces they are designed around the manhandling and hazard (fire, impact etc) forces. Any heavy duty LPG cylinder, such as the calor gas ones, are capable of containing either propane or butane. The little thin walled tins of LPG are another matter but then you can't refill them.

There are many good arguments for not putting propane in a butane cylinder but the strength of the LPG container is not one of them.

 

[mattonthesea]

Without wishing to derail this thread I am after some similar advice. I am doing a North Atlantic cirsuit next year and have been trying to work out what I need in the way of gas. I currently have two butane cylinders(4-6 weeks each) in the draining locker. I will be crossing biscay and spending 3-4 months working way to Canaries ready to cross. Then 3-4 months Grenada - Anguila (ish for both!) before returning via Azores.

Question: is it reasonable sensible to keep these two and add in a propane regulator; then obtain a (refillable?) propane cylinder for the Carribean section? I am working a tight time and very tight budget!