Ferries on autopliot

[Rob_Webb]

Our Inter-Island Ferry (runs across the Cooke Straight from North to South Island) almost ran aground a few days ago after her autopilot failed and they only just caught her in time. Enquiries all over the place but in meantime NZ maritime authority has stated that all ferries must be steered manually until problem understood. (Shipscat might be able to cast more light on this)?

But I was wondering how much the UK cross-channel ferries run on autpilot versus manual, both the standard and high-speed boats. And how does rough weather and visibility affect it? Anyone know?

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[Ships_Cat]

I don't know for sure but I would be reasonably sure that the displacement ferries and the cat would all cross the Strait on autopilot. From the news they say this failure happened in Tory Channel where the boat would be helmed for sure because of the continuous course changes, the narrowness and opposing traffic - but perhaps electronically (by joysticks, or whatever), rather than by conventional wheel, and not to waypoints or a compass course as we would interpret autopilot being.

Certainly coming into and out of Wellington Harbour where there is much more room they are not on autopilot in the way we would interpret it as they frequently make course changes.

I suspect that the news media are totally confused between electronic steering and autopilot and the wheel helm. Of course the union says that they should always have a man at the wheel (as a job creation scheme).

The vessels certainly watch where they are going because a number of times around the bottom of North Island we have gotten in their way while changing course to avoid rips and they always respond immediately and go well out of their way to clear (often half a mile or more). On at least one occasion one of the big displacement vessels (they are approx 500 foot) decided to follow us out to sea too as the seas in the rip were going to be uncomfortable for them as well - were like big white beach combers /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Rob_Webb]

On the radio this morning they had Mr MSA and MR Union Man.

Mr MSA said that until now they were happy for the ferries to go down Tory Channel on autpilot as long as a helmsman was standing by. But after the latest incident they want them all to manually steer until further notice.

But Mr Union Man said they never had a helmsman on standby next to the wheel because there were too few of them and when the ship was on autoplit they were always busy doing other things like pilfering the cargo, reading the paper or having a fag.

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[Ships_Cat]

I think someone has got their story wrong. The media say it happened while the vessel was entering Tory Channel - that is normally taken as the Cook Strait entrance as at the other end you sort of just end up in the channel, no entrance so to speak at all.

Tory Channel entrance is approx 400m wide from rocks to rocks and as they enter from Cook Strait they cannot see what is coming the other way. Entering they go into the entrance on the leads and run approx 600m after which they make a turn of approx 45 degrees to the left and run about another 600 m and make another turn to the left of approx 30 degrees all with steep hills either side. If coming out they do it in reverse and of course, other traffic, of which there is a lot, modifies this.

It would seem most unlikely that they do this on waypoints with feet up drinking coffee and reading a mag as the public would understand autopilot - but electronically steered, yes. I suspect they had an electronic failure in the entrance and had to swap to backup, but will be interesting to see the accident report when it is completed.

They have been aground/touched bottom over the years even when manually helmed at an old conventional type wheel.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[boatmike]

I have been involved with the building and trials (but not operation) of several high speed ferries. They are of course water jet driven and Hamilton jets (NZ) or in very large vessels Kamiwa jets are used. In particular with the Hamiltons (and I think Kamiwa too) there is no direct mechanical helm linkage to the jet steering buckets. Its electronic. (fly by wire like a plane) So if the electronics fail the jets default to straight ahead. There is a "local control" from the WJ compartment but helm then has to resort to a com link to the jet room (right hand down a bit Mr Phillips etc for those who remember the navy lark..)
It's therefore possible that in this case it was such a failure and not an autopilot problem at all. Ferries are no different to other vessels regarding autopilot, even a yacht. AP can sometimes steer a better course than crew can but you have to maintain look out. I don't know of course but this might have been the problem in this case....

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[AndrewB]

When I've been on the bridge of ferries operating on the Dover-Calais run (which I believe account for about 60% of all ferry traffic in the UK) they have appeared to be under full manual control. The volume of traffic in the Dover Straights, with constant collision avoidance necessary, would seem to preclude an autopilot on the 1½ hour run.

(But sometimes it might be better if they had, such as the case of the high speed ferry that in thick fog followed a yacht outside Dover that was desperately trying to avoid it -- and was nearly led onto the harbour wall!)

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[brianhumber]

Re: No such thing as direct \'manual\' steering

As others have hinted at there is no such thing as direct manual steering on large vessels it is all electro/hydraulic power assisted. The only manual bit is a human brain is used via hands as opposed to compass/GPS derived signals to the electrics

If the 'Auto' pilot is switched off then the bridge steers by joysticks or mini wheels but its always through the electro/hydraulic system. Of course there are backup systems to backup systems but they will take a certain time in seconds or minutes to be put into use.

I have sailed on and no doubt others have as well old vessels with emergency wheels on the pilot bridge and poop deck and spent many hours learning to vent these through- it was a favourite exam question. Again these tied into the hydraulic system on the steering gear itself. I remember being deafened in the steering flat light ship steering by the hand wheel and compass with instructions ( 20 degrees port, etc) by speaker phone from the bridge as exercises. Of course if these hydraulics fail ala Amoco Cadiz one really is in poo land.

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[boatmike]

Yes there is!

On the ferry across Vigo bay there is a chap called Manuel who steers directly from one pontoon to the other. If that's not direct Manuel steering I'd like to know what is!


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[jimi]

No its not, this is though!

no its not, Juan tells Manuel where to steer .. that's direct Manuel steering!

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[Ships_Cat]

Re: No its not, this is though!

While Jose cleans the decks perhaps.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[boatmike]

Clearly a case....

Of Juan thing leading to another!
Ne git on wi yer work ye rud auld scots git!!!!

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[jimi]

Re: Clearly a case....

.. The skipper's Carlos and he's run aground!

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[brianhumber]

Re: Yes there is!

ok ok, ok anything over 200tons then?

I have read that chaps have attached chain blocks to the steering rams before now and managed that way but thats boys own stuff

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[boatmike]

Re: Yes there is!

No need. With a waterjet driven catamaran you simply allow the jets to fail to neutral (dead ahead) and steer on the throttles.

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[brianhumber]

Re: Yes there is!

Sadly have no exprience of these but yes can see the idea.

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[boatmike]

Re: Yes there is!

Actually all these vessels are built to the IMO code for High Speed Vessels the latest version of which became effective in 2000. That is for all countries who are signed up to IMO which I believe NZ are not (not sure)
In the UK MCA certify the vessel to the HSC and issue a certificate of compliance without which the operator cannot use it. On trials it is necessary to demonstrate that a secondary means of steering exists and a FMS or Failure Mode Analysis has to be performed documenting the procedure. With the vessels I was involved in with Hamilton Jets it was assumed the electronic link from the wheelhouse could fail completely. In this case there would be a crewman posted at each engine station operating throttles on a voicelink telephone to the bridge. He would not have bucket steering but would have throttle and bucket up (forward) and bucket down (reverse) control making it possible to return the vessel to shore and dock safely. Fun and games but it works OK.


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[boatmike]

Re: No its not, this is though!

No Jose left the sea and now works for the fire department. Hence his nickname Fire Jose.

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[jimi]

Carlos ..

Carlos also got sacked, consoled himself by eating Whispa chocolate bars, got befriended by George Michael who wrote a song about him.

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[TheBoatman]

I\'m totally surprised?

Brian
Are you telling me that these boats don't have an emergency tiller in a locker somewhere<s>

Peter

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[ColinW]

I've travelled on the Liverpool - Dublin SeaCat and that certainly travels on autopilot. Looking at the wake it seems like god has drawn a straight line across the Irish Sea. There's not much chance of the crew nodding off though because the passengers can watch what they are up to! The equipment you can see in their flight deck (bridge doesn't seem the right word) is astonishing.


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