Favourite boats I haven't tried

[flaming]

Glad you've found it interesting Flaming, even if the tastes displayed, largely reflect retrospective preferences.

It is surely equally noticeable that your own preferences are exclusively for racing, or strongly race-influenced, designs, whose primary purpose is necessarily increased performance, whatever that may cost in other characteristics?

Most of my sailing currently is racing, so that's where my thoughts inevitably went. Though the JPK45 is very much a cruiser. It currently heads up my fantasy "sell up and sail away" shortlist. Pogo also feature on that list.

I did recently get out on something from the era that is being so enthusiastically promoted here. It was fairly breezy, but I just got bored. Decent platform for a nice holiday visiting nice places, but very uninspiring to sail. But then, I also sailed some sort of AWB recently. So uninspiring that I can't even remember what it was. Maybe I've just been spoiled by sailing nice race boats, and flabby cruisers of all eras now just bore me from the actual sailing point of view.

To my mind there is no argument that design has moved on, and (mostly) for the better. However it has also diverged quite massively. Cruisers and racers now get very, very different designs. What is interesting is that those who do want the more traditional style of boats are catered for to a reasonable amount, but the sales of boats like the Mystery 35 etc are simply dwarfed by the number of people parting with their well earned money for the offerings from Bavaria etc. The difference between the fantasy and living with it in reality maybe?

 

[TLouth7]

With a few exceptions it seems that the bulk of respondents want to try boats that have been out of production for 20+ years.

I imagine it comes about because people covet things they can see, and there are lots of older boats for every new one. Also for those of us who don't interact with them it can be hard to remember the different models on offer. I would love to have a go on any model of large sportsboat, especially one set up for short handed sailing, but part from the Figaro I couldn't name one.

 

[johnalison]

I imagine it comes about because people covet things they can see, and there are lots of older boats for every new one. Also for those of us who don't interact with them it can be hard to remember the different models on offer. I would love to have a go on any model of large sportsboat, especially one set up for short handed sailing, but part from the Figaro I couldn't name one.

I was thinking along the same lines when I proposed the Pogo 8.50. I may be wrong but I don't think we have mentioned cats yet. I have never sailed a cat, ever, though I have occasionally sat on one. There are many that I have no desire to try, but something sporty around 50' would be interesting.

 

[dancrane]

...sales of boats like the Mystery 35 etc are simply dwarfed by the number of people parting with their well earned money for the offerings from Bavaria etc. The difference between the fantasy and living with it in reality maybe?

I reckon you're right about the difference that actually shelling out the money makes when paying for a new yacht, over mere dreaming. That would seem to explain why relatively cheap mass-produced hulls are most popular; and regrettably, why the styles those builders' designers offer, dominate the new boat scene. Sadly that seems to mean that design development is predominantly either revolutionary (hideous) or safe (tediously banal).

I don't know whether Bavaria (or another "Stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap" builder) has ever presented a genuinely old-fashioned yacht, encompassing the kind of conventional styling cues that are much missed by many contributors here, at lesser expense than the low-output builders of such boats tend to ask? Something tells me we can't expect that idea to catch on...corporate committees secrete tides of banality, and big profitable companies aren't inclined to bet anything on a whim, however attractive.

But that seems a pity to me, because while Cornish Crabbers may be scorned by old-world purists (themselves irrelevant in the production area), their unique selling point has undoubtedly always been the styling - so, retrospect need not be prohibitive to marketing success.

On a different tack, one boat I'd love to try, if only to slay the idea that I'd like to own/live aboard one, is the Prout Quasar. Huge, docile, voluminous, doesn't heel, and floats in three feet of water. And room on the aft deck for an Osprey dinghy.

 

[flaming]

I reckon you're right about the difference that actually shelling out the money makes when paying for a new yacht, over mere dreaming. That would seem to explain why relatively cheap mass-produced hulls are most popular; and regrettably, why the styles those builders' designers offer, dominate the new boat scene. Sadly that seems to mean that design development is predominantly either revolutionary (hideous) or safe (tediously banal).

Actually, I don't think the sail away prices of the Mystery 35 and an AWB of the same size are all that out of line. Mystery is listed as £165k inc VAT "sail away" and even ticking every option on their (actually very good) website gives you price under £200k. And that gets you a very highly equipped boat indeed.
The Beneteau advertises an Oceanis 35.1 at 100k EUR ex vat, headline price. And you can assume that this includes basically nothing... By the time you've specced it out to a similar extent I doubt you'd get much change from the £165k sail away price of the Mystery. So probably not enough difference for someone in the market for a 35 foot cruising boat who actually preferred the Mystery to baulk on cost grounds alone.

The big builders aren't stupid. If there was a large market for boats like the Mystery, they'd be making them.

 

[flaming]

I imagine it comes about because people covet things they can see, and there are lots of older boats for every new one. Also for those of us who don't interact with them it can be hard to remember the different models on offer. I would love to have a go on any model of large sportsboat, especially one set up for short handed sailing, but part from the Figaro I couldn't name one.

Not sure about that.... I've never seen a Bugatti Veron in the flesh, I would still like a go in one though.

We're having this conversation on the website of a bunch of sailing mags. That's their job surely? To get the boat buying public interested in the latest offerings from the manufacturers.... And to be fair, I think the ones I read (YW mainly) do a really good job of not just pushing the latest model from the big boys, but highlighting smaller yards doing interesting boats.

Doesn't seem to be working on a large swathe of their readership though...

 

[Kukri]

The answer is “no”. There is no modern production boat that appeals to me, not even the megabucks aluminium alloy “exploration yachts” although they would come closest, if only they were not so plug ugly.

I will confess that throughout my life I have been drawn to unusually good looking boats, and right now there aren’t any.

Not even the Rustlers. For a tiny fraction of the price, I have a boat which does what the Rustler 57 does, without the ugly coach roof, the fat backside or the absurd double bed in the fore cabin.

I want a boat that can sail easily through most weather, can stow a good weight of stores, has good manners when sailing and is good to look at.

 

[flaming]

The answer is “no”. There is no modern production boat that appeals to me, not even the megabucks aluminium alloy “exploration yachts” although they would come closest, if only they were not so plug ugly.

I will confess that throughout my life I have been drawn to unusually good looking boats, and right now there aren’t any.

In your opinion! In mine, there are some absolutely gorgeous boats being made now. I don't like the long overhang "classic" look so much. Except in actual wooden classics. In GRP it just doesn't every quite sit right to me.

I want a boat that can sail easily through most weather, can stow a good weight of stores, has good manners when sailing and is good to look at.

Nobody could argue with that. We'll just have to agree to disagree over what is good to look at!

 

[dancrane]

If there was a large market for boats like the Mystery, they'd be making them.

I certainly don't say new boats all ought to resemble old ones, although they could do far worse. The surprising thing is the rarity of distinctive, inspired new styles, and the predictability of 1960s sci-fi starship-angularity which lots of designers default to, whenever they try to break new ground.

It is often observed that new products - like Chris Bangle's change to BMW styling, early in the century - are badly received initially, but ultimately accepted by the customer base, and assimilated as 'the way it is', there being no choice if they want to stay with (or aspire to) the brand. Within that evolution from one era's products to another, I believe there is room for company bosses (with testicles) to tame their designers' unshared, frequently absurd notions of beauty, and thus build on the company's earlier work.

Do the manufacturers know what will sell? I think they only know that something will surely sell, and they have a proportion of the market already, so with glossy press-releases and abundant technical data that most customers won't wish to follow, they vomit up a new load of sludge from what the designer is pleased to call his mind; and happily or in two minds (and we'll never know which, because paying six figures for a yacht must be like fathering a child - nobody can ever say they regret it), the customer dons the emperor's new clothes. How else do you account for a mess like this?

It's entirely academic as I'm so low in the economic ecology, but if money were to fall from the sky, I still haven't seen any new boats this century that I admired a fraction as much as many that were built, late in the last.

 

[flaming]

I certainly don't say new boats all ought to resemble old ones, although they could do far worse. The surprising thing is the rarity of distinctive, inspired new styles, and the predictability of 1960s sci-fi starship-angularity which lots of designers default to, whenever they try to break new ground.

It is often observed that new products - like Chris Bangle's change to BMW styling, early in the century - are badly received initially, but ultimately accepted by the customer base, and assimilated as 'the way it is', there being no choice if they want to stay with (or aspire to) the brand. Within that evolution from one era's products to another, I believe there is room for company bosses (with testicles) to tame their designers' unshared, frequently absurd notions of beauty, and thus build on their earlier work.

Do the manufacturers know what will sell? I think they only know that something will surely sell, and they have a proportion of the market already, so with glossy press-releases and abundant technical data that most customers won't wish to follow, they vomit up a new load of sludge from what the designer is pleased to call his mind; and happily or in two minds (and we'll never know which, because paying six figures for a yacht must be like fathering a child - nobody can ever say they regret it), the customer gladly dons the emperor's new clothes. How else do you account for a mess like this?

It's entirely academic as I'm so low in the economic ecology, but if money were to fall from the sky, I still haven't seen any new boats this century that I admired a fraction as much as many that were built, late in the last.

See I think that's actually quite good looking (for a cat). Purposeful. Certainly massively better looking than that crime against the concept of eyes the Prout you posted earlier....

 

[Wansworth]

Could morph in to a ford prefect any moment!

 

[dancrane]

"Purposeful"? It's plainly been drawn up with an etch-a-sketch! It has undergone a sort-of religious expunging of any organic curves. That may be the basis of what the majority here, and certainly I, so dislike about new designs. There's more usable space in a square than in a circle of the same breadth, so the curves are stetched, squarer and fuller to fit within the same maximum footprint; and artistic skill is made redundant.

Actually I think that cat and the earlier Quasar, vie for the highest hideousness quotient. I never said I liked how the big Prout looks - it's fearful. But these days they're almost cheap, and still hugely capable.

 

[flaming]

"Purposeful"? It's plainly been drawn up with an etch-a-sketch! It has undergone a sort-of religious expunging of any organic curves. That may be the basis of what the majority here, and certainly I, so dislike about new designs. There's more usable space in a square than in a circle of the same breadth, so the curves are stetched, squarer and fuller to fit within the same maximum footprint; and artistic skill is made redundant.

Until you've taken a more modern design and heeled it over until it sits on its chine... Then the penny drops... It isn't just about internal volume. After all, if narrow and deep was fast, then all race boats would be narrow and deep.
In cruising boats it a bit of fashion, bit of function, but in anything with a performance bent, that chine is there for a purpose, and the results can be amazing. Especially when you're sitting at 15 knots on a 32 foot, offshore capable cruiser/racer and the helm is just light and easy and the stress levels are just so much lower than on the boat she replaced in the same breeze.
No way any design from yesteryear can pull that trick....

 

[dancrane]

I do believe you, but I don't see that such high performance objectives account for inclusion of these styling cues in the bulk of most yards' output - displacement cruisers.

Cruising yachtsmen are happy for racers to argue over handicaps, influence, pay for and flit about in whatever designs they think will win - it doesn't make those styles relevant or significantly beneficial, or pleasing, at cruising level. So where that style appears in cruising boats, it's much more fashion than function.

I don't believe the unfortunate bloating of cruiser hulls is in consequence of the pursuit of performance, it's just to introduce caravan accommodation inside. And it doesn't take a salty, last-century perspective to favour the designs from those days. Ask any non-sailor you know, which 35ft yacht they think is more attractive, A or B? I've labelled them, so you don't confuse the second pic with an iced cake.

A

B

 

[Stemar]

I've seen a few Cheoy Lees and they've all been lovely, but I'll never own a boat with so much wood until I'm rich enough to tell my man (or woman) to take care of that bit of varnish.

One boat that would find its way onto my wannabe liveaboard world cruise list is the Vagabond - another heavy old plodder, but I reckon that she'd plod through pretty much anything

 

[newtothis]

I do believe you, but I don't see that such high performance objectives account for inclusion of these styling cues in the bulk of most yards' output - displacement cruisers.

Cruising yachtsmen are happy for racers to argue over handicaps, influence, pay for and flit about in whatever designs they think will win - it doesn't make those styles relevant or significantly beneficial, or pleasing, at cruising level. So where that style appears in cruising boats, it's much more fashion than function.

I don't believe the unfortunate bloating of cruiser hulls is in consequence of the pursuit of performance, it's just to introduce caravan accommodation inside. And it doesn't take a salty, last-century perspective to favour the designs from those days. Ask any non-sailor you know, which 35ft yacht they think is more attractive, A or B? I've labelled them, so you don't confuse the second pic with an iced cake.

A

B

These things are subjective, but I've got a pretty good idea which of those the skipper would want me to book for the next charter, and it ain't the scruffy looking one on top.
Point is that it is horse for courses. Most production boats are designed to do a job - Med charters - and, for the most part, they do it well; note which of your examples has easy access to the water via a bathing platform. Racing boats have a role and design, as do 1970s-designed northern Europe-based cruisers and modern Med charter boats. Each to their own.

 

[SV Kittiwake]

Is there nothing from any yard's current offering that interests you?

I'd quite like to take a Nordhavn around the Norwegian fjord for a month, does that count? A Boreal or Garcia would also do

 

[doris]

I have to say that I totally agree with Flaming. I have no great desire to potter around in a nautical Sierra, Humber or Riley. All great in their day.
Whilst some of the BenBavJens are tedious to sail and look at there are some terrific modern boats to dream about.
Garcia Exploration 45, good enuf for Pete Goss and Jimmy Cornell, good enuf for me! The Dazcat 1295 is a comfortable rocket ship.
Tight arsed boats from history that roll like pigs going downhill, why want one??? Knowledge moves on and takes speed, efficiency and comfort with it. The much reviled, on this forum, GT35 was the best 35 foot cruiser I have ever sailed thanks to Stephen Jones' ever developing skills.
I'll get my coat.

 

[doug748]

It's never very long on these occasions before someone says:

"Dear oh dear, oh dear, dear - why do you people not favour something better - just like the boats I prefer" "For they are better, even if they ar not very useful."

How something you don't want, or like, can be better has not yet been tested in the courts of logic.

 

[dancrane]

The killer word - "charter" has been used to explain modern styles and their popularity, so not a lot of point discussing taste. Thank heavens, old GRP wears well - so assuming I get to sail some of them, the boats I like will see me out.

Stemar - the Vagabond! What a beauty. Good choice. Her design must have been incredibly retrospective when even the oldest of those hulls was completed - so there's nothing necessarily 'of their time' about old boats. Hopefully at least some designers today, are equally keen on older styling cues.