Fatality at Dartmouth

[JumbleDuck]

General survial times in water for avergae fit person

There is some very interesting stuff from Transport Canada on survival in cold water at https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519342.pdf. I was pointed at it during a first aid course for outdoor activities I run. The thing I found most surprising is that hypothermia takes far, far longer to kill you than most people think. Even in very cold water it can take many hours. What kills far sooner, as listed in your table, is the onset of hypothermia reducing to nothing the person's ability to avoid drowning.

The "Cold Water Boot Camp" videos on Youtube are also worth a look.

 

[ghostlymoron]

When you are a liveaboard, you need a LJ that is convenient when ashore as well as effective when on the water. So suggestions of a survival suit are not helpful - they wouldn't be suitable for doing your shopping in.
Some harbour authorities provide storage lockers near the pontoons which is a good initiative as carrying a LJ around with you isn't very convenient. I suppose the best advice is to be fastidious about always wearing one, get the most comfortable available, use a small rucksack to carry it when ashore. Don't get complacent.

 

[savageseadog]

There is some very interesting stuff from Transport Canada on survival in cold water at https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519342.pdf. I was pointed at it during a first aid course for outdoor activities I run. The thing I found most surprising is that hypothermia takes far, far longer to kill you than most people think. Even in very cold water it can take many hours. What kills far sooner, as listed in your table, is the onset of hypothermia reducing to nothing the person's ability to avoid drowning.

The "Cold Water Boot Camp" videos on Youtube are also worth a look.

Which is why it's worth persisting with CPR etc if you pick up somebody with hypothermia.

 

[fisherman]

I and my crew wore auto lifejackets all day every day since 1998, when a fisherman drowned from going ob and getting a knock on the head. We worked quite hard shifting heavy gear, and I could also get down below round the engine without any problem, and coming ashore in the dinghy while wearing full oilers and boots. Some people think it's a bit sissy, while others take the opposite and I was even accused of 'showing off'. Some mindsets need changing even now, after years of campaigning and grant aid for the cost.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Which is why it's worth persisting with CPR etc if you pick up somebody with hypothermia.

The chap who ran my first aid course, a very experienced kayak expedition leader, was very emphatic that you keep up CPR until help arrives. Even if that's hours. Even if you think the person is dead. Of course there are limits. Probably apocryphal:

 

[JumbleDuck]

I and my crew wore auto lifejackets all day every day since 1998, when a fisherman drowned from going ob and getting a knock on the head. We worked quite hard shifting heavy gear, and I could also get down below round the engine without any problem, and coming ashore in the dinghy while wearing full oilers and boots. Some people think it's a bit sissy, while others take the opposite and I was even accused of 'showing off'. Some mindsets need changing even now, after years of campaigning and grant aid for the cost.

It's remarkable how many MAIB reports on fatal accidents on fishing boats say that the crew never wore PLBs.

 

[fisherman]

It's remarkable how many MAIB reports on fatal accidents on fishing boats say that the crew never wore PLBs.

Yes, and they are grant-aided as well. I wore one, and had a waterproof phone on a lanyard in a top pocket, belt and braces, I couldn't find a way to wear the SH handheld VHF, step too far, but I'm sure a way could be found.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

The chap who ran my first aid course, a very experienced kayak expedition leader, was very emphatic that you keep up CPR until help arrives. Even if that's hours. Even if you think the person is dead. Of course there are limits.

And it's important that on a outdoor first aid course, (rather than one where for situations where the ambulance might be expected within a reasonable time), that the first aiders really understand and feel empowered, about when CPR can be discontinued. To not have a reasonable set of guidelines can lead to first aiders being constrained into actions that might make the whole situation worse. They must also know when enough is enough or otherwise you're setting them up for pretty traumatic post event guilt.

However I can understand how an 'experienced kayak expedition leader' might have a slightly more committed approach to CPR as the recovery from apparent cold water drownings have been quite dramatic even after long unresponsive times.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And it's important that on a outdoor first aid course, (rather than one where for situations where the ambulance might be expected within a reasonable time), that the first aiders really understand and feel empowered, about when CPR can be discontinued. To not have a reasonable set of guidelines can lead to first aiders being constrained into actions that might make the whole situation worse. They must also know when enough is enough or otherwise you're setting them up for pretty traumatic post event guilt.

True, but I think the survivor guilt could be even worse if you stopped CPR before help arrived. Of course the first rule is "Don't endanger yourself" and might kick in with rising tide, falling night or an approaching bear.

 

[Spyro]

I was taught on first aid courses that you don't decide when enough is enough. You keep going until help arrives or you physically can't do anymore.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

True, but I think the survivor guilt could be even worse if you stopped CPR before help arrived. Of course the first rule is "Don't endanger yourself" and might kick in with rising tide, falling night or an approaching bear.

If you're sailing offshore, the chances of a single person being able to maintain CPR until help arrives is practically zero. The realities of the choices that have to be made when sailing, as many do, as a husband and wife team on long term cruises, should be part of any relevant first aid course, just as they are when we're training group leaders for land based expeditions. The simplistic "keep going till help arrives, hasn't been taught on any course I've done since the days when Dr Jones from Bangor Hospital used to do his 'First Aid for Mountaineers' course in the 70s.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I was taught on first aid courses that you don't decide when enough is enough. You keep going until help arrives or you physically can't do anymore.

Yup, that was what we were told.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I understand that in the situation where you have a non breathing casualty, are alone and help is remote, it's best to put the casualty in a safe position but summon help and not start CPR.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Tough call though. Incidentally, someone who's not breathing with no heartbeat is technically dead and resuscitation is not successful as often as you might think through watching Casualty.

I understand that in the situation where you have a non breathing casualty, are alone and help is remote, it's best to put the casualty in a safe position but summon help and not start CPR.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The simplistic "keep going till help arrives, hasn't been taught on any course I've done since the days when Dr Jones from Bangor Hospital used to do his 'First Aid for Mountaineers' course in the 70s.

Well, it was taught on mine, and since that was for land or lake activities and I am normally looking after other people's children when I do them, it seems good advice to me. We always have multiple staff, which helps.

 

[penberth3]

I and my crew wore auto lifejackets all day every day since 1998, when a fisherman drowned from going ob and getting a knock on the head. We worked quite hard shifting heavy gear, and I could also get down below round the engine without any problem, and coming ashore in the dinghy while wearing full oilers and boots. Some people think it's a bit sissy, while others take the opposite and I was even accused of 'showing off'. Some mindsets need changing even now, after years of campaigning and grant aid for the cost.

Well said, an excellent post.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Tough call though. Incidentally, someone who's not breathing with no heartbeat is technically dead and resuscitation is not successful as often as you might think through watching Casualty.

The London Ambulance Service statistics are interesting.

 

[penberth3]

The London Ambulance Service statistics are interesting.

Any links?

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

Tell that to the fisherman who hung onto his net for five miles after falling in last month. The water around the uk doesn't get a lot colder throughout the year. Yes it's cold but it's survivable. A good attitude helps and not deciding you are a gonner if you fall in before it even happens.

Well said.

 

[Spyro]

Resuscitation is not usually possible with cpr alone but you are keeping the meat fresh until someone arrives with defibrillator.