Family Cruiser - Great Ouse System/Broads

[Lukehammond]

Morning All,

I am looking to purchase a family sail cruiser for weekend/holiday cruising with my family (3 x children aged 2-9). Mainly single handed sailing but with room to double hand as kids grow.

The want/intent is to have a sail boat capable of motor navigating rivers then setting up to sail on sea/broads.

One dream/ image I have is of navigating from home mooring (St Neots/Ely/waterbeach(if possible to get the boatanywhere on cam) through to Kings Lynn wash and around and into the .

I started looking at bilge keel I.e. Jaguar 27, mirage 28 however I think I will have issues with draft on jag and depending on route/location with mirage. I am also unsure of where the height restrictions on this route would be so possibly need to take or have a collapsible mast!

so I suppose my questions are:

does anyone have experience of the Ouse and especially the river cam from Cambridge they could share.

can a bilge keel work in the Ouse and for coastal trip around to broads or would a retractable keel be worthwhile investment.

Any recommendations on a boat with either a collapsible/easy to drop mast or a strategy to manage this?

if the cam etc is a no-go is there any recommendations on alternative river/locations ideally within 60min/mi. One option would be the broads but it is 90min away. River stour?

Any other advice guidance spring to mind?

appreciate your time and thoughts!

regards

luke

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Your main problem on both Cam and Ouse will be mooring; moorings are few and far between, and I gather there's strong competition for them.

Concerning draft, I've looked into it and there don't seem to be ANY reliable figures - the waterways people reckon that if it'll float a narrowboat, it's navigable! As narrowboats can float on wet grass, that's not helpful. Be aware that all these rivers are used for drainage, and that the water level can vary by several metres. I live less than a mile from the Ouse and used to live a similar distance from the Cam, and have no idea of the depth of water in either. I have, at various times, wondered whether I could bring my Moody 31 up to Littleport, but can find NO reliable information about the minimum depth of water. I'm unlikely to do it, but it's something I have wondered about.

The boats you mention might also have issues with draft on the Broads.

However, there are many low bridges, and you're quite right that a readily lowered mast would be essential. Unfortunately, few sea-going boats (and you need to be sea-going to make the trip from King's Lynn to Yarmouth) are arranged like that. Lowering the mast on the boats you mention is a major task; most people would rely on a boatyard (with cranes etc.) to do it. You CAN'T do it without extra equipment (at the very least, a spinnaker pole or, better, an A-frame to avoid the point where the forestay loses its mechanical advantage) and several strong helpers (minimum crew to do this would be 3 or 4 people). Once the mast is down, you then have the issue of where to put it - the mast will almost certainly be longer than the boat.

You might do better to consider keeping a boat at Wisbech, which has ready access to the sea and also access to the river network. However, another issue that you might consider is that the seaward end of these rivers is dead boring! From Ely to King Lynn, the Ouse runs between levees, and there are long straight reaches (miles long in places). There is no view, and you're running through East Anglian prairie anyway; no woodlands or anything, just miles of industrial arable farming. If the wind happens to be along one of these long stretches, you can get quite a respectable chop! While the rivers are quite pleasant in the areas you mention (I lived at Waterbeach for many years), they rapidly lose their charm as they near the sea. Then you're into the Wash, which is notoriously difficult navigation, and finally, the passage round the North Norfolk coast has few harbours (realistically, only Wells, which is not always accessible).

 

[Lukehammond]

Your main problem on both Cam and Ouse will be mooring; moorings are few and far between, and I gather there's strong competition for them.

Concerning draft, I've looked into it and there don't seem to be ANY reliable figures - the waterways people reckon that if it'll float a narrowboat, it's navigable! As narrowboats can float on wet grass, that's not helpful. Be aware that all these rivers are used for drainage, and that the water level can vary by several metres. I live less than a mile from the Ouse and used to live a similar distance from the Cam, and have no idea of the depth of water in either. I have, at various times, wondered whether I could bring my Moody 31 up to Littleport, but can find NO reliable information about the minimum depth of water. I'm unlikely to do it, but it's something I have wondered about.

The boats you mention might also have issues with draft on the Broads.

However, there are many low bridges, and you're quite right that a readily lowered mast would be essential. Unfortunately, few sea-going boats (and you need to be sea-going to make the trip from King's Lynn to Yarmouth) are arranged like that. Lowering the mast on the boats you mention is a major task; most people would rely on a boatyard (with cranes etc.) to do it. You CAN'T do it without extra equipment (at the very least, a spinnaker pole or, better, an A-frame to avoid the point where the forestay loses its mechanical advantage) and several strong helpers (minimum crew to do this would be 3 or 4 people). Once the mast is down, you then have the issue of where to put it - the mast will almost certainly be longer than the boat.

You might do better to consider keeping a boat at Wisbech, which has ready access to the sea and also access to the river network. However, another issue that you might consider is that the seaward end of these rivers is dead boring! From Ely to King Lynn, the Ouse runs between levees, and there are long straight reaches (miles long in places). There is no view, and you're running through East Anglian prairie anyway; no woodlands or anything, just miles of industrial arable farming. If the wind happens to be along one of these long stretches, you can get quite a respectable chop! While the rivers are quite pleasant in the areas you mention (I lived at Waterbeach for many years), they rapidly lose their charm as they near the sea. Then you're into the Wash, which is notoriously difficult navigation, and finally, the passage round the North Norfolk coast has few harbours (realistically, only Wells, which is not always accessible).

Thank you for your response!

your note on the draft for the broads means I need to look closer as I thought they would be ok. Especially the mirage with 1.09M draft.

is there any location that lists bridge locations and height?

I see the logic of Wisbech takingyour above comments however at that distance from me it is akin to travelling to N.Broads which would be a more interesting sailing location.
Makes me consider/confront reality that a larger boat on the cam is not feasible, especially if mooring is hard to come by.

pushes me towards a trailer boat/dinghy for day local sailing and/or a larger boat at broads or another location.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Thank you for your response!

your note on the draft for the broads means I need to look closer as I thought they would be ok. Especially the mirage with 1.09M draft.

is there any location that lists bridge locations and height?

I see the logic of Wisbech takingyour above comments however at that distance from me it is akin to travelling to N.Broads which would be a more interesting sailing location.
Makes me consider/confront reality that a larger boat on the cam is not feasible, especially if mooring is hard to come by.

pushes me towards a trailer boat/dinghy for day local sailing and/or a larger boat at broads or another location.

Perhaps something like one of the Cornish range (Welcome to Cornish Crabbers - Cornish Crabbers) Decent sea boats, easily lowered rig, gaff rig means that the spars can fit within the length of the boat, centreboard so shallow draft. Most are trailable.

 

[Habebty]

My last boat was a lift keel Pegasus 800 (26'). It came with an A frame for lowering the mast and shallow draft with the keel up. I sailed it up the coast from Ipswich to the Broads and had a happy week dodging hire boats and trees. Sailed well and comfortable for 2 adults and 2 small children. They were built on the Broads at Oulton Broad and came with either masthead or fractional rigs. Some were home fitted out and some were yard finished.
Probable budget about £10k or less. There is also a smaller Pegasus 700 (22-24?')

 

[Lukehammond]

My last boat was a lift keel Pegasus 800 (26'). It came with an A frame for lowering the mast and shallow draft with the keel up. I sailed it up the coast from Ipswich to the Broads and had a happy week dodging hire boats and trees. Sailed well and comfortable for 2 adults and 2 small children. They were built on the Broads at Oulton Broad and came with either masthead or fractional rigs. Some were home fitted out and some were yard finished.
Probable budget about £10k or less. There is also a smaller Pegasus 700 (22-24?')

thank you for this!

 

[Lukehammond]

thank you for this!

So as an update I wanted to share my thought/learning journey!

first Off: Ouse is out! Broads are in! Confront reality!

intent of boat: refresh my sailing ability, engage my family and open them to what it means to sail and be aboard a boat and what it offers. Resell boat in 2-3 years then (all going to plan) purchase a newer boat (-£35k)

Second: I created a list of “wants” as follows:
Ideally 5 berth for a “trip” boat
If not possible a day boat of 3/4 berth
Lifting keel (or bilge keel <4ft)
Easy mast lowering
Sheets run aft for easier single handed sailing
<£10k
Low maintenance expectation/running costs

mall the above being said I began my google warrior search with an aim leaning towards trailer sailors with the following list being formed:

5/6 berth
MacGregor 26
Odin 820
Sedna 24/26
Matinee 26
Hunter 260

3/4 berth
Diva 24 DC
Mariner 24
Jeanneau 2000 Sun
Sporting 680
Dehler 25
Parker 235
Swift 18

Following my research I felt ready to settle on a MacGregor 26 when I have come across a Pegasus 800 dual bilge keel 5 berth yacht (made in the broads) for <£10k as suggested above!

though it is not trailerable I am tempted by the lower costs of moorings away from majority of the holiday marina around Wrexham and to look around Norwich. Offering a blend of river cruising, south broads and access to sea or north broads via GY!

myonly concern (bar is the boat priced right) is raising and lowering mast with an A/Y frame versus the winch of the MacGregor. Though I wander if the sailing performance of the Pegasus will outweigh this! As ultimately I want to sail more than raise and lower the mast!

not really a point to this ramble than to share my thoughts so far and to open myself to the experienced eyes/brains of others ?

 

[pvb]

Only masochists sail on the Broads! Why don't you hire a Broads sailboat first for a week and see how enjoyable you find it?

 

[Lukehammond]

So as an update I wanted to share my thought/learning journey!

first Off: Ouse is out! Broads are in! Confront reality!

intent of boat: refresh my sailing ability, engage my family and open them to what it means to sail and be aboard a boat and what it offers. Resell boat in 2-3 years then (all going to plan) purchase a newer boat (-£35k)

Second: I created a list of “wants” as follows:
Ideally 5 berth for a “trip” boat
If not possible a day boat of 3/4 berth
Lifting keel (or bilge keel <4ft)
Easy mast lowering
Sheets run aft for easier single handed sailing
<£10k
Low maintenance expectation/running costs

mall the above being said I began my google warrior search with an aim leaning towards trailer sailors with the following list being formed:

5/6 berth
MacGregor 26
Odin 820
Sedna 24/26
Matinee 26
Hunter 260

3/4 berth
Diva 24 DC
Mariner 24
Jeanneau 2000 Sun
Sporting 680
Dehler 25
Parker 235
Swift 18

Following my research I felt ready to settle on a MacGregor 26 when I have come across a Pegasus 800 dual bilge keel 5 berth yacht (made in the broads) for <£10k as suggested above!

though it is not trailerable I am tempted by the lower costs of moorings away from majority of the holiday marina around Wrexham and to look around Norwich. Offering a blend of river cruising, south broads and access to sea or north broads via GY!

myonly concern (bar is the boat priced right) is raising and lowering mast with an A/Y frame versus the winch of the MacGregor. Though I wander if the sailing performance of the Pegasus will outweigh this! As ultimately I want to sail more than raise and lower the mast!

not really a point to this ramble than to share my thoughts so far and to open myself to the experienced eyes/brains of others ?

Pegasus 800 FOR SALE | Topsail Marine Yacht Brokers
Hope it is ok for me to post a link?
Here is the Pegasus 800 that caught my eye. I feel it needs some updating on the internals. Any advice on any questions/things to keep an eye out for if I go for a look?
Thank you

 

[Lukehammond]

Only masochists sail on the Broads! Why don't you hire a Broads sailboat first for a week and see how enjoyable you find it?

Haha I did! ?! Dodging the other boats is part of the fun no? Though maybe not if it is my own boat ?

min all seriousness thoughI totally understand and why I was considering the norwhich to GY side though I haven’t sailed this part yet.

also…sailing the broads is better than no sailing ??‍

 

[pvb]

Pegasus 800 FOR SALE | Topsail Marine Yacht Brokers
Hope it is ok for me to post a link?
Here is the Pegasus 800 that caught my eye. I feel it needs some updating on the internals. Any advice on any questions/things to keep an eye out for if I go for a look?
Thank you

That boat looks very tidy, but I still think you should hire one first to discover the real good and bad points about sailing on the Broads.

 

[mrming]

Apart from the out of date electronics that boat presents pretty well in the pics. Very strong asking price but the market has gone a bit mad lately.

 

[pvb]

I was considering the norwhich to GY side though I haven’t sailed this part yet.

The Yare can be inhospitable. Fast-flowing in parts, commercial traffic sometimes. I've been up to Norwich in a powerboat; wouldn't have wanted to go in a sailboat.

 

[LittleSister]

I am unfamiliar with navigating on the Great Ouse, however the Broads is not generally that restricted in depth. Parts of the Broads have considerable depth (e.g River Yare, from Great Yarmouth to Norwich, which used to be used by sizeable ships - Norwich was, until relatively recently a major port). Some of the actual broads (lakes formed by flooded former medieval peat diggings) are rather marginal in depth, but as far as I am aware most of the rivers that form the bulk of the 200km Broads network have OK depths for the sort of boat you are talking about. A lifting keel or centre plate is an advantage, but by no means essential. You are most likely to only have issues with depth when trying to moor against the banks in some areas, and even then are more likely to be restricted by overhanging trees. I sailed a 23' boat with 3 foot draft from the sea up to the outskirts of Norwich, mooring at a number of places (there are numerous 24 hour visitor mooring by the Broads Authority, and others provided for a fee by boatyards or riverside pubs (the latter usually free if you buy a meal at the pub), without touching the bottom once, though I did trim a tree with my mast at one location as I wasn't used to having to look above a mooring to check.

The bridges are restrictive. The Yare up to near the centre of Norwich has swing and lifting bridges (except for one very high road bridge). You can also get with a mast up from Lowestoft via the River Waveney upstream to very close to Beccles town centre, and downstream to Somerleyton and St. Olaves. Other than that, fixed bridges, some very low, abound, so either you'll need to be able to drop the mast, or have it taken off the boat for the duration of your stay in the Broads. Also beware that many of the lifting and swing bridges are very old, and can sometimes be out of action - usually short-term, but occasionally longer.

I've never found a particularly user-friendly map and guide to the Broads bridges (maybe I'll make my first million compiling one ), but all the information you are likely to need can be found in the following two websites with a bit of digging around and thinking it out.
Bridge heights and openings
Help with navigating low bridges on the Norfolk Broads

The southern Broads around the Rivers Yare and Waveney are much quieter than the northern Broads, which are more scenically varied and have more waterside commercial attractions, but have a lot of boat traffic, much of it hire boats (often driven by people without a clue!). Note also that while commonly referred to as the Norfolk Broads, part of the Broads is in Suffolk!

Enjoy!

 

[Lukehammond]

Apart from the out of date electronics that boat presents pretty well in the pics. Very strong asking price but the market has gone a bit mad lately.

Yeah that was my feeling. The lights etc stood out to me as well as the “decor”. He had it advertised at 10,950 which was over priced IMO. 9,950 is about right with electrics and minor internal TLC so my gut was floating around £8,500 though that’s still a chunk to come down.

 

[Lukehammond]

I am unfamiliar with navigating on the Great Ouse, however the Broads is not generally that restricted in depth. Parts of the Broads have considerable depth (e.g River Yare, from Great Yarmouth to Norwich, which used to be used by sizeable ships - Norwich was, until relatively recently a major port). Some of the actual broads (lakes formed by flooded former medieval peat diggings) are rather marginal in depth, but as far as I am aware most of the rivers that form the bulk of the 200km Broads network have OK depths for the sort of boat you are talking about. A lifting keel or centre plate is an advantage, but by no means essential. You are most likely to only have issues with depth when trying to moor against the banks in some areas, and even then are more likely to be restricted by overhanging trees. I sailed a 23' boat with 3 foot draft from the sea up to the outskirts of Norwich, mooring at a number of places (there are numerous 24 hour visitor mooring by the Broads Authority, and others provided for a fee by boatyards or riverside pubs (the latter usually free if you buy a meal at the pub), without touching the bottom once, though I did trim a tree with my mast at one location as I wasn't used to having to look above a mooring to check.

The bridges are restrictive. The Yare up to near the centre of Norwich has swing and lifting bridges (except for one very high road bridge). You can also get with a mast up from Lowestoft via the River Waveney upstream to very close to Beccles town centre, and downstream to Somerleyton and St. Olaves. Other than that, fixed bridges, some very low, abound, so either you'll need to be able to drop the mast, or have it taken off the boat for the duration of your stay in the Broads. Also beware that many of the lifting and swing bridges are very old, and can sometimes be out of action - usually short-term, but occasionally longer.

I've never found a particularly user-friendly map and guide to the Broads bridges (maybe I'll make my first million compiling one ), but all the information you are likely to need can be found in the following two websites with a bit of digging around and thinking it out.
Bridge heights and openings
Help with navigating low bridges on the Norfolk Broads

The southern Broads around the Rivers Yare and Waveney are much quieter than the northern Broads, which are more scenically varied and have more waterside commercial attractions, but have a lot of boat traffic, much of it hire boats (often driven by people without a clue!). Note also that while commonly referred to as the Norfolk Broads, part of the Broads is in Suffolk!

Enjoy!

Thank you so much for this! And the helpful links! I’ll have a dig! So much to learn!

 

[Lukehammond]

The Yare can be inhospitable. Fast-flowing in parts, commercial traffic sometimes. I've been up to Norwich in a powerboat; wouldn't have wanted to go in a sailboat.

Appreciate the heads up! Also I think your right I only have 4 days of sailing exp on the Broads. Though equally I’m not sure where else I would have access to! And I’ll take less than ideal over no sailing! Though that my be my inexperience talking!
Any way! It’s en excuse for another broads sailing holiday! Maybe with an RYA course for better foundations for sailing on my own!

 

[LittleSister]

The Yare can be inhospitable. Fast-flowing in parts, commercial traffic sometimes. I've been up to Norwich in a powerboat; wouldn't have wanted to go in a sailboat.

I am very surprised by your experience of the Yare. I've been on it numerous times, in canoes and in a 23' sailing boat, and can't imagine how any of it above Breydon Bridge (outskirts of Great Yarmouth) could possibly be described as inhospitable.

Except in Great Yarmouth, below the Haven Bridge, there is negligible commercial traffic these days. There is also only light leisure traffic on the Yare.

The only bit with strong tidal flows worth mentioning is through Great Yarmouth, i.e. below Breydon Bridge, where it does warrant careful attention (including to the tide tables), but is easily within the capabilities of the sort of sailing boat the OP mentions.

 

[mrming]

Yeah that was my feeling. The lights etc stood out to me as well as the “decor”. He had it advertised at 10,950 which was over priced IMO. 9,950 is about right with electrics and minor internal TLC so my gut was floating around £8,500 though that’s still a chunk to come down.

Before COVID a boat like this in this condition (much better than average) would have maybe fetched £5-6k after a haggle. So do bear in mind that prices are very inflated right now. Still a lot of boat for the money imo, but note that the market may have returned to normal when you go to sell. Judging by your budget for the next boat that won’t be a big deal, but something to consider. Also bear in mind that every older second hand yacht needs a good few quid spending on it to get it how you want it. In my experience you don’t get that money back when you sell.

 

[Lukehammond]

Before COVID a boat like this in this condition (much better than average) would have maybe fetched £5-6k after a haggle. So do bear in mind that prices are very inflated right now. Still a lot of boat for the money imo, but note that the market may have returned to normal when you go to sell. Judging by your budget for the next boat that won’t be a big deal, but something to consider. Also bear in mind that every older second hand yacht needs a good few quid spending on it to get it how you want it. In my experience you don’t get that money back when you sell.

No that’s a massive help! Especially as we are coming to end of season etc I was thinking we would also start to see more boats come to market! Also the outlook on COVID is changing slowly with the world re-opening!
Money may not be an issue! But my wife’s goodwill would be ?
And good shout on the money in v money out! I need to remember to spend only what I have to to be “happy” with the boat as it will just be sunken coat.