Fairline new owner?

[volvopaul]

That sounds about right. The other factor that seems to affect the British brands in particular (or maybe they’re just more visible) is that of woefully inept management. Maybe the two things are linked, I guess there’s a cause/effect here but taking Princess as an example it makes and sells a lot of expensive boats yet seems incapable of turning a profit and burns cash like there’s no tomorrow.

Quality control from some uk builders now is absolutely shocking , years ago we opted for British builds as the quality was better than let’s say the French builds , nowadays uk builders churn boats out unfit for purpose, they end up at the dealers with many snagging faults some very costly because the faults are at an early stage of build which can be difficult to rectify , believe me I’ve seen it this obviously costs money but more importantly it puts future buyer off and the existing ones that are very disappointed in their million pounds investment, there is no wonder people look abroad. Very sad to know we don’t make them as we used to .
Also the materials they use these days don’t last , a friend went to look at a 5 year old 50ft , he was very disappointed in the fact it had stress cracks all over it , the interior had many water leaks , the linings were peeling , the teak was lifting , the gyro had come loose from its mounting, the list went on , this is a 900k boat that needs a 50k refit at 5 years old , it just shows how badly they are put together, we didn’t even get round to discussing IPS issues it might have.
Where did it all go wrong.

 

[Clash]

Where did it all go wrong.

I suspect you know the answer to this question. Once the value strippers move in, jobs are cut, costs are cut and corners are cut, all to strip cash out for the shareholders before offloading to another similar outfit to rinse and repeat.

The good people get out while the going is good and the remainder are looking over their shoulders waiting for the axe to fall on them.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Quality control from some uk builders now is absolutely shocking , years ago we opted for British builds as the quality was better than let’s say the French builds , nowadays uk builders churn boats out unfit for purpose, they end up at the dealers with many snagging faults some very costly because the faults are at an early stage of build which can be difficult to rectify , believe me I’ve seen it this obviously costs money but more importantly it puts future buyer off and the existing ones that are very disappointed in their million pounds investment, there is no wonder people look abroad. Very sad to know we don’t make them as we used to .
Also the materials they use these days don’t last , a friend went to look at a 5 year old 50ft , he was very disappointed in the fact it had stress cracks all over it , the interior had many water leaks , the linings were peeling , the teak was lifting , the gyro had come loose from its mounting, the list went on , this is a 900k boat that needs a 50k refit at 5 years old , it just shows how badly they are put together, we didn’t even get round to discussing IPS issues it might have.
Where did it all go wrong.

Yep have heard similar from others. The corner cutting on materials and arguably finishes doesn’t square with the massive price hikes.

 

[benjenbav]

But (and I'm asking a question, not disagreeing with you because I'm no expert on boat manufacturing) is that not intrinsically linked to the fact that building a high quality hand made product IS inevitably going to 'burn more cash'?

If you want to build a better boat, you're going to have to use higher quality/more materials and use more people/take much longer to do it in a better way. You could, I suppose, use cheaper/less materials, rush it through faster, use lower grade production techniques, basically start mass producing. But then surely you would then lose the one edge you have, that high end product, and you have nothing left to compete with mass production already done very well elsewhere?

I wonder whether the answer lies with the brand positioning. Stick an advert of a big white boat from a 'high end' British builder in a magazine and the average punter is left wondering why he should pay 25% (or whatever) more than he would for the big white boat in the advert placed by the mass production builder. That same punter, however, has no problem with paying 50% more for his Range Rover than he would have paid for a Toyota Land Cruiser that, on paper at least, does the same job (in fact the Land Cruiser probably does it better!) because he recognises that the Range Rover is a 'high end' brand that costs more, so he is happy to do so.

Perhaps you have answered the question you posed in #50. Having been outcompeted in various market segments the Brit builders have tried to move into the (>)/30m market where their offerings match the existing players in size but not in customisation or luxury or exclusivity or cachet - call it what you will .

If you’re about to spend €10m that you won’t miss on a toy, you probably want a one-off, filled with materials you have chosen and with an image that sets you apart from folk who need to worry about where the money is coming from; not something that’s perceived as merely a bigger version of the €2m boat parked down the quay on which someone is paying off a massive loan.

 

[Grubble]

Except that you won’t be able to buy in the UK as they haven’t sold enough electric cars, was told by a dealer they have a big waiting list but sadly can’t supply any.

For a company that was the first to mass produce a hybrid car (way back in 1997) Toyota have been really slow to move to all electric EVs, instead choosing to describe their hybrids as "self-charging EVs", which might fool some people, but not the people who count. Toyota now have the BZ4X, but are really late to the party and pricey. The MG4 costs from £27K, the Tesla Model 3 is from £40K and the BJ4X starts at £42K, so it's not really surprising they are behind, having backed hybrids and fuel cell cars, rather than BEV.

 

[Daydream believer]

Where is Oyster in all the yachting brands these days? have not seen it mentioned in this thread. Are they still going? Did the new buyers make a success? hope so.

 

[petem]

I suspect you know the answer to this question. Once the value strippers move in, jobs are cut, costs are cut and corners are cut, all to strip cash out for the shareholders before offloading to another similar outfit to rinse and repeat.

The good people get out while the going is good and the remainder are looking over their shoulders waiting for the axe to fall on them.

Do you have any examples of these "value strippers" who have paid shareholders? The ones who have owned Fairline, Princess or Sunseeker?

From my understanding, the very opposite has been occurring and it's venture capital investment that has kept these companies afloat. Without them, they'd have closed down years ago.

 

[petem]

Why is it that these UK boat companies just never seem to make a profit, Or break even.

Everything has become so expensive; engines, resin, labour, marketing (boat shows, web sites, etc), transport. And the amount of tech that is now considered to be mandatory (nav equipment, hi/lo bathing platforms, complex lighting). And the finish has to be super luxurious so expensive carpets, fabrics, bespoke furniture, the list goes on.

 

[Clash]

Do you have any examples of these "value strippers" who have paid shareholders? The ones who have owned Fairline, Princess or Sunseeker?

From my understanding, the very opposite has been occurring and it's venture capital investment that has kept these companies afloat. Without them, they'd have closed down years ago.

Well I'm not bored enough to go rooting through their accounts for every year of their existence (nor the money to waste buying them from companies house), but in 2022 Fairline made an operating loss of £18m from a turnover of £48 million. Losses increased to £22 million in 2023. All these investments from venture capitalists have to be paid back, so they seem to be saddled with debt. Below is a summary of their financials over the last few years. Doesn't look like much investment over those years.

 

[petem]

Well I'm not bored enough to go rooting through their accounts for every year of their existence (nor the money to waste buying them from companies house), but in 2022 Fairline made an operating loss of £18m from a turnover of £48 million. Losses increased to £22 million in 2023. All these investments from venture capitalists have to be paid back, so they seem to be saddled with debt. Below is a summary of their financials over the last few years. Doesn't look like much investment over those years.
View attachment 187182

I don't think that what you've quoted says anything about what money has been invested into the business.

When you say "All these investments from venture capitalists have to be paid back" do you know that any money was actually paid back to the investors?

What I see is a company that has struggled to make boats at a profit, particularly during Covid. I've no doubt that other people could've done a better job but to suggest that their motive was anything other than an attempt to build up the business and make it profitable seems to be unfounded to me. The same goes for Sunseeker and Princess.

 

[Clash]

I don't think that what you've quoted says anything about what money has been invested into the business.

When you say "All these investments from venture capitalists have to be paid back" do you know that any money was actually paid back to the investors?

What I see is a company that has struggled to make boats at a profit, particularly during Covid. I've no doubt that other people could've done a better job but to suggest that their motive was anything other than an attempt to build up the business and make it profitable seems to be unfounded to me. The same goes for Sunseeker and Princess.

The net worth figure (total assets less total liabilities) is mad. And it's fluctuating hugely. Then you have current liabilities (amounts due in one year - which will obviously include trade creditors too) fluctuating wildly, indicating that repayments are either being increased or borrowing also increasing. Without the full accounts, I can't be definite, but when you take these along with the massive losses (roughly 38% of turnover) the company is clearly hemorrhaging cash somewhere.

What's worse is that it's not even making a gross profit. And hasn't for years. So there have been no efficiencies implemented to reverse this trend. They're losing money on every boat they make before they even get to pay for overheads. All those owners don't seem to have addressed a fundamental problem with production.

 

[volvopaul]

I suspect you know the answer to this question. Once the value strippers move in, jobs are cut, costs are cut and corners are cut, all to strip cash out for the shareholders before offloading to another similar outfit to rinse and repeat.

The good people get out while the going is good and the remainder are looking over their shoulders waiting for the axe to fall on them.

Correct , you cannot build good boats from poor quality products and unskilled staff with no training that are given ridiculous time scales to throw a boat together, no wonder it’s all gone horribly wrong .

 

[volvopaul]

Everything has become so expensive; engines, resin, labour, marketing (boat shows, web sites, etc), transport. And the amount of tech that is now considered to be mandatory (nav equipment, hi/lo bathing platforms, complex lighting). And the finish has to be super luxurious so expensive carpets, fabrics, bespoke furniture, the list goes on.

Yes but prices for new boats have gone absolutely crazy since covid along with labour rates , rates and rent etc , at the end of the day the consumer is soaking it all up , so where has it really gone wrong? Too much back to the share holders to keep them sweet maybe , false accounting to make it look good when in actual fact it’s gone too far down the line that you may as well go bust for a100 million than just 10 million?

 

[Clash]

Where is Oyster in all the yachting brands these days? have not seen it mentioned in this thread. Are they still going? Did the new buyers make a success? hope so.

Forecast to return to profit this year. But they have actually invested heavily in production facilities, staff and support services.

Fingers crossed for them.

 

[petem]

Have any new Fletchers been sold since these people took it over?

The people who own Fairline and Fletcher aren't venture capitalists.

 

[Clash]

The people who own Fairline and Fletcher aren't venture capitalists.

I didn't say they were. But Fairline's history is littered with them. And the current owners are arguably worse. cf Fletcher boats.