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Fairline Boats purchased
- Thread starter stelican
- Start date
jfm
Well-Known Member
tcm
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lifejacket jammed in the hole then inflated is another idea. Sounds like the Fairline thread has drifted though...
jfm
Well-Known Member
Happy to agree to disagree mike on the engineering benefits/disbenefits of alternative forms of construction. I realise it isn't a selling point, and I posted in in support of Admillington's "look under the skin" comment which was almost by definition raising the point of things you cant see. This construction method is very much under the skin and invisible at boat shows, as are plenty of other aspects of a boat's construction
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Ermm... Isn't that a sort of oxymoron, J?
I mean, either inner mould construction is designed to be integral/concurrent for the boat structural strength or it isn't.
If it is (which is something I find hard to believe), your comparison with the bridge structure is correct.
But if that would be the case, avoiding at least partially hull frames and stringers would be a logical and appropriate consequence, and inner moulding a solid reason, rather than an excuse.
My impression is that the rationale behind inner moulding has zero to see with quality, neither under the skin nor visible.
It's simply a design choice, mostly driven by a BEP calculation, based on the targeted production numbers and the consequent build process industrialization.
Mind, I'm not saying this to dismiss the quality of the final result - far from that.
Otoh, I don't think it's fair also to imply the opposite, i.e. no inner moulding=lower quality.
Just to name a couple of completely different builders, neither Royal Huisman nor Sanlorenzo use inner mouldings, afaik.
But both sell their products at premium prices, and they find people willing to pay.
There must be more than just skin-deep reasons for that, I reckon...
crustysailor321
Member
Hehe, I never said there was a problem. People are entitled to their personal opinions. I don't have an issue with hardtops either. Like others said, its what many other boat builders do nowadays. Makes sense from a cost perspective. But somehow the squadron 42 and 48 looks not entirely right in terms of proportion.
As for handling, I have tested a squadron 42, and while it certainly may not be representative of the squadron range as a whole, it does seem to not have the same handling ability as its predecessor. Not saying it is poor in sea keeping, but not quite there either.
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crustysailor321
Member
Hahaha, that would be tempting, wouldn't it?
But like I said, people are entitled to their own views. Some have no problem with Fairline boats. Others do. It is natural for current Fairline boat owners to think there is nothing wrong with their boats, handling-wise. And that is a perfectly legitimate view. Likewise, it is also perfectly normal and legitimate for other folks who have tried or tested different boats to find Fairline a bit wanting in some areas. I have issues with the Squadron 42 and 48, that doesn't mean they are bad boats, but they aren't perfect either. And the 42 in particular, does seem to go through the chops less well compared to the Princess 43.
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jfm
Well-Known Member
MM, I don't think it has to be a choice of an inner moulding that contributes to strength and rigidity then fewer frames and stringers, or one that doesn't and the same intensity of frames and stringers. It is possible for a designer to install both a high density of frames and stringers AND the internal moulding, thereby stiffening/strengthen the hull, and this was the express intention of the design team on this boat (who are still around, btw).Ermm... Isn't that a sort of oxymoron, J?
I mean, either inner mould construction is designed to be integral/concurrent for the boat structural strength or it isn't.
If it is (which is something I find hard to believe), your comparison with the bridge structure is correct.
But if that would be the case, avoiding at least partially hull frames and stringers would be a logical and appropriate consequence, and inner moulding a solid reason, rather than an excuse.
My impression is that the rationale behind inner moulding has zero to see with quality, neither under the skin nor visible.
It's simply a design choice, mostly driven by a BEP calculation, based on the targeted production numbers and the consequent build process industrialization.
Mind, I'm not saying this to dismiss the quality of the final result - far from that.
Otoh, I don't think it's fair also to imply the opposite, i.e. no inner moulding=lower quality.
Just to name a couple of completely different builders, neither Royal Huisman nor Sanlorenzo use inner mouldings, afaik.
But both sell their products at premium prices, and they find people willing to pay.
There must be more than just skin-deep reasons for that, I reckon...
I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I'll just post 2 pictures again. The first shows frame size and intensity (and neatness) and second shows the internal moulding before installation. This internal moulding is glued onto the top/inside of EVERY frame using Crestomer, and bonded to the hull at the gunwhale (and the superstructure to hull bolts pass through it, so they pass through 3 mouldings not 2, before that joint is laminated over). I honestly thank that makes for a superior hull build compared with the "just plywood" approach but I'm happy for that to remain just my opinion and I have zero desire to convince anyone any further!
petem
Well-Known Member
Surely GRP is thinner and lighter than ply or is this irrelevant?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Ah weight -the holy grail of a Planing boat is to keep it down .Otherwise for a given engine Hp -the more Kg 's = less performance .
I know JFM,s boat is faster than average FB,s ( I have raced it end of season too ) therefore its not super heavey .Or has big FO engines correctly propped -even so kg,s kill speed .
Reviewing the first pic ( green hull mould ) -what exactly are those frames + stringers made of ?
There are a few loose pieces of lighter coloured material by the mixing palate -what is it ?
Reason I ask is there may be another reason for the "frame density " -it's need to be -cos they are not marine ply ,other wood, Aluminium ,or Carbon fibre .
So the inner liner surely when bonded contributes to rigidity / strength when the two are combined -it needs to!
Returning to Mike F ,s point re tracing a water ingress a lot of those box section will be inaccessible surely ( like all those to the left of the bloke in the pic -) -when the inner section is glued in .
It's gotta be wieght saving -whole thing /concept
It's gotta be time saving -labour wise -once you have all the plugs/moulds
Its gotta be material saving
But as I said in an earlier post I,am nor critiquing it -just curious .
Personally I Preffer the trad method -cos you can lift up floor panals , look under stuff and eye ball all the glassed in plywood - x members ,bulkheads , stringer, frames etc see no cracks ,leaks and check for wear and tear ,more like dryness
As an aside I read some where that the first Sunseeker 131 took 12 months to build -think of the labour costs here .
Weight wise it can do high twenties .
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Not really wanting to contribute to the OCD debate; on which, on the subject of boats I'm just a non-league team playing a cup fixture against the big boys. But I did wonder, when reading post #428, as to whether the reference to frames and stringers should not be to ribs and stringers.
Also, having owned a boat built in Poole, which had the engines held down by relativity; no, wait: it was a combination of Newtonian principles and large self-tappers, I do sometimes think about the quality of the construction of planning boats generally. But they mostly seem to serve a purpose.
Also, having owned a boat built in Poole, which had the engines held down by relativity; no, wait: it was a combination of Newtonian principles and large self-tappers, I do sometimes think about the quality of the construction of planning boats generally. But they mostly seem to serve a purpose.
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jfm
Well-Known Member
@Portofino - race? I have never raced you afaik.
The lighter coloured material is foam. I can already imagine what you are going to say about that! Try to think about the physics of box section constructions generally, however. The function of the foam is merely to support the GRP until the resin cures; the foam plays no part in the strength of the hull obviously
@BJB, happy to be corrected - I'm not sure I could define the precise distinction between a frame and a rib. FWIW, in this form of boat construction, I would tend to say they are frames (because of their construction method and butch dimensions) and that the boat has no ribs, but I'm v happy to be corrected on that
The lighter coloured material is foam. I can already imagine what you are going to say about that! Try to think about the physics of box section constructions generally, however. The function of the foam is merely to support the GRP until the resin cures; the foam plays no part in the strength of the hull obviously
@BJB, happy to be corrected - I'm not sure I could define the precise distinction between a frame and a rib. FWIW, in this form of boat construction, I would tend to say they are frames (because of their construction method and butch dimensions) and that the boat has no ribs, but I'm v happy to be corrected on that
petem
Well-Known Member
I think the interesting question is whether the transition to making 100 boats a year across the range and the desire to minimize product development costs / tooling will result in FL building boats differently. A question for the factory I guess.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
I would have said stringers run fore and aft, ribs across and together constitute a structural frame but then your liner is structural I think, too?
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Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Yeah OK. What I will concede is that the use of a full internal moulding should lead to less movement between the accommodation sub structures and thus less of the squeaking and rattling under way that some boats exhibit. Was the 78 the first Fairline you've had with an interior moulding and was there any difference in this sense to previous Fairlines you've owned?
stelican
Well-Known Member
Fairline have always use an inner moulding,Well at least for the past 40 yrs
KevB
Well-Known Member
Nothing to add other than my first boat was one of those, very well put together it was.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Yup stringers run fore/aft. AIUI, the athwartships things can be either ribs or frames. In ye olden days ribs were bent in from straight wood, nailed to each plank, and so they served to stitch the planks together but not create or maintain the cross sectional shape of the hull, and they had no shape identity of their own (or if they did, it was a straight line). Frames in contrast are thicker and dictate or maintain the cross sectional shape, somewhat as bulkheads do. So it's arguable either way, but I'd call those critters "frames" in this case, due to their having their own shape identity and a relatively large cross section
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Apologies for any misconception re "race" by mistake
It's just in pic 1 you seemed to boast / imply - there are no other pic,s about with similiar frame or rib density as Fl , when infact it's just foam covered in GRP .I was and suspect others thought the ribs / frames were a it more solid eg ply,teak , Alu ,carbon fibre --and glassed in as well to form a box section too! but be weighty .
That explains where the Kg ,,s have been lost -otherwise it would be a slug .
So back to why is it "better "
Having two moulds ?
jfm
Well-Known Member
Now, how did I know you'd say that?! If you're happy to dismiss a dense matrix involving GRP frames just because foam was used to form them while the resin cured, then we come from different planets as regards engineering.
As said above, I'm happy to leave the debate, but check this out...
I found a firm selling this carp and folks making skyscrapers from it. The steel box is HOLLOW, would you believe. It contains just air, which is even weaker than foam. I and i suspect others thought it would be solid; everyone knows solid is superior to hollow box section.