Fairline Boats purchased

Deleted User said:
Well by the Pond, I guess you mean the English Channel
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'Course that's not what I meant, but I'm sure you know that already! :)

Don't be fooled (and I'm talking also to Rafiki here) by the formal definition of "State aids".
Using taxpayers' money to support some specific interests is a cat that can be skinned in much more ways than one.
Tax concessions, grants, shares purchase, quantitative easing, development assistance, TARP (as they called it in the US, IIRC), whatever: all different names for skinning the same old cat.

That said, talking of absolute values, I neither remember them by heart nor I'm willing to search them - as I wasn't yesterday - because every time I came across figures and reports on these things they always manage to sadden my day.
But I'm pretty sure that the whole Greek bailout was nowhere near the amounts involved in the UK banks rescue.
And subsidies to farmers are chicken feed in comparison, if you excuse the pun! :)

Mind, I'm not defending the French agriculture subsidies, the German sophisticated ways to protect Wolfsburg and minimize the impact of the largest industrial scam ever, the inefficiencies of public spending in many EU Countries (mine included), and so forth. Far from that.
But it's not like the UK is in a bulletproof position and can fingerpoint to anyone else, as the UK Govt and press obviously like to do, and as most UK citizens like to think.
Let him who is without sin, etc.

All that said, 'fiuaskme, I'd rather subsidize fishermen in principle, than anyone whose earning come from a pound of flesh. But I like fish, so I guess I'm biased... :p
And that's all I have to say about that. :rolleyes:
 
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MapisM said:
Tax concessions, grants, shares purchase, quantitative easing, development assistance, TARP (as they called it in the US, IIRC), whatever: all different names for skinning the same old cat.
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This will be the EU and the ECB you're referring to here then? Look I don't think its fruitful to continue this line of argument only to say that the UK and Europe do have somewhat different economic models. Here in the UK by and large we follow what the French disparagingly call the Anglo Saxon economic model in which industries are mostly unprotected by govt and are allowed to go to the wall when market forces dictate. In Europe, you follow a more social democratic model in which key industries are protected from market forces in order to meet long term national strategic aims

Which model is best in the long run I don't know but at the moment given the disparity between the economic performance of the UK against Europe, you'd have to say that the UK is getting it more right than Europe
 
Deleted User said:
This will be the EU and the ECB you're referring to here then? Look I don't think its fruitful to continue this line of argument only to say that the UK and Europe do have somewhat different economic models. Here in the UK by and large we follow what the French disparagingly call the Anglo Saxon economic model in which industries are mostly unprotected by govt and are allowed to go to the wall when market forces dictate. In Europe, you follow a more social democratic model in which key industries are protected from market forces in order to meet long term national strategic aims

Which model is best in the long run I don't know but at the moment given the disparity between the economic performance of the UK against Europe, you'd have to say that the UK is getting it more right than Europe
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I agree, other than bank bailouts and the Scottish and Welsh Govts purchasing failing airports I struggle to think of any other Govt assistance.
 
petem said:
other than bank bailouts
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LOL, yeah, aside from one of the largest bailouts ever anywhere in the world, and by far the first in relation to the Country GDP, the Anglo-Saxon model is rather strict.
Someone might even call it kosher, I suppose. :o
 
MapisM said:
LOL, yeah, aside from one of the largest bailouts ever anywhere in the world, and by far the first in relation to the Country GDP, the Anglo-Saxon model is rather strict.
Someone might even call it kosher, I suppose. :o
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Whereas the ECB only had to bail out whole countries so they could bail out their own banks. Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Cyprus, Portugal, Slovenia to name a few. Luckily Super Mario did learn how to do that in the Anglo Saxon world otherwise the Eurozone would be a pile of smoking rubble by now;)
 
petem said:
Yep, the UK Govt would no doubt put the job to tender with anyone in the EU welcome to bid. This will be at the frustration of Brits and the Govt will claim that it's EU law (that no other country in the EU takes any notice of).
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Are you sure that this contract was won without a tender. Cause I would not be so sure of that, especially since Ferretti is publicly showing the project.

To return with subsidies, was not red diesel a form of subsidy to the British boating Industry till it lasted. Was not the weak Pound (nearly on par with the EURO in 2009) a huge bonus. Fairline had the best local (Malta) sales since decades because of that.

I also would say the Italian Govt (indirectly) helped the British and French boating industry not once but twice (1991 and 2011), as when Italy had technical government moving the house the loss the industry had was surely a benefit to its outside competitors.
The latest technical madness was one created by Monti was a horrific one, considering that up until 2010 the industry had only reduced its size by just a bit more to 15%. Not bad after the 2008/9 crash.
It is thanks to him that many people Brits including where/are shopping special discounted used boats in Italy since 2011.
And it is also thanks to this (in part) that Princess got a foot hold in the 90-100 feet plus sizes I would add, because prior to that it was not selling much of its 80 feet plus boats.
Falcon, Alalunga, Posillipo, Filippetti all closed doors in a space of months. That is alone a production or more less 50 yachts a year plys 70 feet.
Who can sell a boat with GDF in-front of the premises.

Imagine if Fairline had tax men infront of its building inspecting everyone who visits the premises his tax status, or even worse a complete inspection happening during a boat show.
That is how Monti basically attacked the Italian boating market, shrinking it by over 70% in 2011.

This post is turning funny, if you lot are blaming other Govts for the downfall of Fairline. You surely have not seen nothing yet....
 
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PowerYachtBlog said:
To return with subsidies, was not red diesel a form of subsidy to the British boating Industry till it lasted.
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Given that 95% of the big stuff (Sunseeker, Princess etc) goes abroad and most of the small stuff (Fletcher, Trusty, Hardy etc) have tiny diesel engines or petrol outboards, I'm going to go with 'no'. :D
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
To return with subsidies, was not red diesel a form of subsidy to the British boating Industry till it lasted. Was not the weak Pound (nearly on par with the EURO in 2009) a huge bonus. Fairline had the best local (Malta) sales since decades because of that.
.
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You can't call the weak pound 'state aid'. That was just a reflection of the UK economy at the time and of course it has risen considerably since. All those economically weak European countries who stupidly joined the Euro could have benefited from the same kind of currency advantage had they done the same as the UK ie put economic logic before national pride and not joined the Euro.

But yes you're right, the red diesel derogation was indeed a form of indirect subsidy to the British marine industry but thanks to our 'friends' in Brussels, this has now partially disappeared. However there is now a typically British compromise involving diesel used for heating that effectively means that UK marine diesel for pleasure boaters costs roughly the same as the rest of Europe

As for Italy's marine tax, not even the British govt would be so stupid as to wreck one of its industries doing that
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
Are you sure that this contract was won without a tender. Cause I would not be so sure of that, especially since Ferretti is publicly showing the project.
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It's widely known that some national governments within the EU draw up the terms of tender documents for major contracts to heavily favour their own companies.

From 2014;

Mr Johnson attacked other European countries, particularly France, for undermining the “free market” principles of the EU, saying it was easier to trade with the Middle Eastern country of Bahrain than Paris.

Describing Britons as “the good Europeans” he said: “You will see on the streets of London buses owned and run by German companies, by Dutch companies, and by the French state.

“I’m saying this directly to the commission, can you in a million years imagine that the Parisians, that the French, would allow London bus companies on to the streets of Paris? Can you?

“It’s inconceivable. Can you imagine that the French transport authorities – after 40 years of membership of the EU – would buy a London-made bus stop? Can you imagine it – no?
 
DougH said:
I get p****d off with the numptys who love to run their Country down and yell that we no longer have any industry left.

Get out into the factories and you will be proved very wrong.
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Nobody doubts that we have a large manufacturing sector. Equally, nobody doubts that a significant amount of it is foreign-owned.
 
benjenbav said:
Surely the entire EU (and predecessors) was set up to support French agriculture?
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Hacker: Europe is a community of nations, dedicated towards one goal.
Sir Humphrey: Oh, ha ha ha.
Hacker: May we share the joke, Humphrey?
Sir Humphrey: Oh Minister, let's look at this objectively. It is a game played for national interests, and always was. Why do you suppose we went into it?
Hacker: To strengthen the brotherhood of free Western nations.
Sir Humphrey: Oh really. We went in to screw the French by splitting them off from the Germans.
Hacker: So why did the French go into it, then?
Sir Humphrey: Well, to protect their inefficient farmers from commercial competition.
Hacker: That certainly doesn't apply to the Germans.
Sir Humphrey: No, no. They went in to cleanse themselves of genocide and apply for readmission to the human race.

(From https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yes,_Minister)
 
Deleted User said:
Here in the UK by and large we follow what the French disparagingly call the Anglo Saxon economic model in which industries are mostly unprotected by govt and are allowed to go to the wall when market forces dictate.
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Except the financial industry, of course, which must be protected at all costs so that it can continue to destroy other sectors of the economy - see previous posts about the demand for short-term profits and shareholder value.
 
From my outsider point of view
The UK copies an American Capitalism way of doing things, which works well in a capitalist environment. It might be the other way round since I am not an economy expert.
I also think and I add, but I might be wrong that UK do it even better then the Americans do it, meaning that the system is less corrupted and more pragmatic.
The Muricans have a way of jumping fast to things.
if I believe Lehman Bros was in the UK, I believe that in the UK this would have ended much better. Why let Lehman go and the others not...

Problem with other nations is that they do Capitalism for normal average Joe, and then do not when it is someone at the top of the pyramid scale.
 
Deleted User said:
Whereas the ECB only had to bail out whole countries so they could bail out their own banks. Greece, Italy, Ireland, Spain, Cyprus, Portugal, Slovenia to name a few. Luckily Super Mario did learn how to do that in the Anglo Saxon world otherwise the Eurozone would be a pile of smoking rubble by now
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Aaah, BUT! It's a really interesting point that you're raising, M.

Anywhere in the world, by definition there's no such thing as a Country that needs a bailout for not being able to repay its own debts in its own currency.
The very simple reason being that any Country can print (if you forgive me the expression - I'm fully aware that it isn't technically correct, but I'm using it for sake of simplicity) as much as necessary of its own currency, and use it to repay its own debts.

Now, the Eurozone is the only exception on planet Earth where a Country can't print its own currency.
Because of this, whenever Angela eventually accepts to do that for Greece or whoever, we call it a bailout.
And on top of that, we are so brainwashed with such terminology that we think it's something different from what the central banks of any "normal" (meant as non-Eurozone) Country can do without any external approval.
But it isn't. Not one iota.
The only difference between a BoE quantitative easing and what you called ECB bailout of Eurozone Countries is the terminology, nothing else.

Of course, you (as many others I'm sure) can argue that you'd rather live in a Country that doesn't need Angela approval to bail themselves out.
Which is a valid point, but that's not even another chapter, it's another book entirely.
In this context, all I'm saying is that it's not like the UK Govt has been able to bail UK banks out without actually get the Country bankrupt in the process.
If the UK would have been a private company (or an Eurozone Country), what happened should have been called a default with a bang for good.
So, all considered, I'm not sure it's fair to blame any Eurozone Country for not having been able to bail themselves out by...
...Ahem... May I say cheating, sort of? :D
 
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