Fairline Boats purchased

[crustysailor321]

As stated previously, I don't think there is an awful lot wrong with British management these days, the biggest challenge is British investment, which seeks a very short term return. Some foreign ownership is happier to invest for the future, rather than seeking an immediate return. That is what Wanda is doing with Sunny. Unfortunately for Fairline, their VC investor wanted a decent return in 3-5 years, which is standard practice for a VC, but the business was unable to achieve this, hence the exit. Same thing happened with Sealine. In fact one could criticise Brunswick (US Management) for the failure of Sealine. I really don't get this British obsession of self flagellation. There are many things we are good at, some we are not so good at. Most countries could say the same.

But also like I said, concern for short-term return is not something unique to UK. The Germans, Japanese, Italian and French have to deal with the same issue. Yet their manufacturing firms are still able to make long-term investment. Why can't British-owned firms do the same? Its not about self flagellation, its trying to analyze what went wrong and yes, that does require a critical look at things.

I do agree that boat building business isn't for those looking for a quick buck or the fattest profit margin possible, at least not in the first few years of ownership. If one is looking to make the most money as soon as possible, then boat building isn't for them. There has to be a real passion for boats and the skill and craftsmanship involved. Fairline's previous owner clearly didn't have those in mind. Every firm needs a sound business plan of course. You can't do without them, but you can't let the bean counters run the show for a boat building firm either.

I'm not saying a foreign owner has some "business magic" or inherent superiority over British owners, but it does seem to be the case that British owners can't manage a stable and profitable manufacturing firm in many cases, notwithstanding demands for quick return on investment.

 

[DougH]

I'm with you Portofino, I'd see ANY customisation request from a client as a revenue earning opportunity, it's not not like they're building a million boats a year FFS.

Pete, you have no idea just how wrong you are.

My family own a manufacturing company that has the very latest in high tech machinery and produces standard products to the construction industry at very competitive prices from which we made sensible profits.

If we take one of the items we produce and say as standard it costs the customer £10.00, when he then needs that item to be altered to suit his special requirements he expect to pay £15.00 max.

When he learns that for us to redesign, draw and produce 1 item on computer controlled machines that have to be re-programmed for 1 item and then the item has to be tested to ensure it complies with all standards he is shocked at the price we require him to pay.

A simple special like this could easily be price at £1000.00 (Yes £1000.00).

Customers will never pay this hence we do not make specials.


CUSTOMISATION IS NOT REVENUE EARNING, MAKING A STANDARD PRODUCT WITH EXTRAS ONLY AVAILABLE FROM THE STANDARD PRICE LIST IS.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

CUSTOMISATION IS NOT REVENUE EARNING, MAKING A STANDARD PRODUCT WITH EXTRAS ONLY AVAILABLE FROM THE STANDARD PRICE LIST IS.

Well thats not the experience I've had with the manufacturers of construction equipment I deal with. These manufacturers build machines in the same kind of numbers as boat builders ie hundreds, not thousands or millions and with the same kind of value ie hundreds of thousands/millions not pennies. Yes all manufacturers would like to sell bog standard products at bog standard list price but some markets don't work like that. If you're investing £1m in a construction machine or a boat, you expect to have it built the way you want it, within reason. A smart manufacturer can handle this, especially since offering a degree of customisation is one way to maintain a good price. If your competitor can't offer customisation but you can, then of course you can charge a bit more for your product and a buyer will accept this. There are other benefits to this as well. The customisation process fosters a closer relationship with the buyer that may have benefits for future business and it makes for a more rewarding job for the engineers involved in it. Yes there has to be a balance between cost and customisation and nobody expects it for free but a good manufacturer should indeed see it as an opportunity not a burden

 

[Cheery]

What you mean then Mike is a Ford Transit of the waves. A bit down market I agree but Smiths builders doesn't get them to make different widgets for his vans, he asks them to put a different shape one on from the catalogue.

Sorry for the motoring analogy.

 

[rafiki_]

But also like I said, concern for short-term return is not something unique to UK. The Germans, Japanese, Italian and French has to deal with the same issue. Yet their manufacturing firms are still able to make long-term investment. Why can't British-owned firms do the same? Its not about self flagellation, its trying to analyze what went wrong and yes, that does require a critical look at things.

The Germans, and particularly the French have a different take on State Aid than the British Govt. I'm not sure any of us would be able to discover how much Jean/Ben are supported by Govt money, but if it is anything like their auto business, then substantial. Fiat is being kept afloat by the Italian Govt and Chrysler. There are over 600,000 cars run by the Italian government, all Fiat Group. There are about 150 British Ministerial Cars. The Yanks do what they like, and have this interesting concept of Chapter 11. Not sure about the Japanese, but they don't make too many leisure boats. However, just cast your mind back over the past few years and consider the number of US boat brands that have disappeared, many more so than Brit brands. Italians have not been immune to crash and burn either. Apologies, but I get a bit irritated by the Daily Wail view on life. Things are not all a disaster here, there is a lot we do very well. Oh and by the way, it is not foreigners building cars here, they may be the owners, but it is Brummies, Scousers etc who are on the production lines, not Indians and Septic's. Have you ever been to a car plant? If not, you should do.

 

[DougH]

Well thats not the experience I've had with the manufacturers of construction equipment I deal with. These manufacturers build machines in the same kind of numbers as boat builders ie hundreds, not thousands or millions and with the same kind of value ie hundreds of thousands/millions not pennies. Yes all manufacturers would like to sell bog standard products at bog standard list price but some markets don't work like that. If you're investing £1m in a construction machine or a boat, you expect to have it built the way you want it, within reason. A smart manufacturer can handle this, especially since offering a degree of customisation is one way to maintain a good price. If your competitor can't offer customisation but you can, then of course you can charge a bit more for your product and a buyer will accept this. There are other benefits to this as well. The customisation process fosters a closer relationship with the buyer that may have benefits for future business and it makes for a more rewarding job for the engineers involved in it. Yes there has to be a balance between cost and customisation and nobody expects it for free but a good manufacturer should indeed see it as an opportunity not a burden

Don't disagree with your analogy of large construction equipment Mike.

We have just had installed a £1.5 million machine from Japan on which we had several alterations/extras.

Machine took 6 months to arrive at exact specification and 9 months to build

Boats up to about 85 feet are made on a form of production line and each vessel has to keep up with the production time process.

Due to the low volume of boats produced the only way to get near the 'extras' desire is for the boat to be completed as standard and then moved to a new location to have the extras fitted by a third party.

This is in fact how Princess used to operate in the past (can't comment on current practices) and I don't believe that many buyers went down this path.

Sunseeker have a base price and a long, long list of extras which seem to satisfy most peeps.

With most manufacturers offering a wide choice of wood finishes, fabrics, leathers etc I do wonder just what the buyers want.

Seems to me that most folks just want a cheap boat.

 

[DougH]

The Germans, and particularly the French have a different take on State Aid than the British Govt. I'm not sure any of us would be able to discover how much Jean/Ben are supported by Govt money, but if it is anything like their auto business, then substantial. Fiat is being kept afloat by the Italian Govt and Chrysler. There are over 600,000 cars run by the Italian government, all Fiat Group. There are about 150 British Ministerial Cars. The Yanks do what they like, and have this interesting concept of Chapter 11. Not sure about the Japanese, but they don't make too many leisure boats. However, just cast your mind back over the past few years and consider the number of US boat brands that have disappeared, many more so than Brit brands. Italians have not been immune to crash and burn either. Apologies, but I get a bit irritated by the Daily Wail view on life. Things are not all a disaster here, there is a lot we do very well. Oh and by the way, it is not foreigners building cars here, they may be the owners, but it is Brummies, Scousers etc who are on the production lines, not Indians and Septic's. Have you ever been to a car plant? If not, you should do.

!00% agreement.

I get p****d off with the numptys who love to run their Country down and yell that we no longer have any industry left.

Get out into the factories and you will be proved very wrong.

 

[jrudge]

We had a software company ... customisation was a nightmare and when re rewrote the system we just refused point blank to do it.

The challenge of course is that customisation drives sales, and as above no one will pay anything like the true cost.

Hence my comments above that "customisation" comes in various shades of grey. More fabrics, more extras and then the bit you don't want to get into which is major alterations to partitions and so on unless you have pre designed 2/3 acceptable variants.

The Squadron 65 in front of me delayed my boat as the customer wanted a particular brand of stabiliser they had not previously fitted. The impact then is my boat is late ( tough) but for the factory that instead of making 12 a year to sell they can now only make say 11. That costs.

As such as odd as it seems the princess - build it and send it to someone else to modify actually makes sense. Especially when the other party is not commented directly to them .... they can demand the real price to do the job. Also the rest of the boats on the line as not impacted. The people on a production line are slick as they do the same thing day in day out - they can't change it for every boat ... but they can build 2-3 pre agreed and designed variations.

So this is a tricky path to travel. The other thing ( which you see on super yachts alot) is that the customisation is very custom, so much so that selling it will be difficult. I know what boat xxx looks like but not any more!

 

[crustysailor321]

The Germans, and particularly the French have a different take on State Aid than the British Govt. I'm not sure any of us would be able to discover how much Jean/Ben are supported by Govt money, but if it is anything like their auto business, then substantial. Fiat is being kept afloat by the Italian Govt and Chrysler. There are over 600,000 cars run by the Italian government, all Fiat Group. There are about 150 British Ministerial Cars. The Yanks do what they like, and have this interesting concept of Chapter 11. Not sure about the Japanese, but they don't make too many leisure boats. However, just cast your mind back over the past few years and consider the number of US boat brands that have disappeared, many more so than Brit brands. Italians have not been immune to crash and burn either. Apologies, but I get a bit irritated by the Daily Wail view on life. Things are not all a disaster here, there is a lot we do very well. Oh and by the way, it is not foreigners building cars here, they may be the owners, but it is Brummies, Scousers etc who are on the production lines, not Indians and Septic's. Have you ever been to a car plant? If not, you should do.

Me, never been to a car plant? Ha, I don't think you should make so much presumptions about me.

My father worked for Leyland at Solihull back in the 70's, and I remember well the horror stories he told me. As a result, I promised myself never to work for someone as an employee. I started my own small business instead. It was really tough going at first and I didn't become mega rich. But I earned enough to be well off and at least don't have to worry about whether I can put food on the table for my family. I don't have to answer to incompetent superiors or clueless management .

Yes, state aid, does make a heck of a difference. But at the end of the day, the firm has to stand on its own feet and not rely on government handout. And yes absolutely, British workers now can do a stellar job. Why? Those plants have the right system in place. Why only now after foreign ownership in place? Because they have a different mindset to what boat building really entails? Pity the government and those British management ranks that never figured that out until it was too late.

You see, I'm not insulting or demeaning UK workers or the products they produce. Like I said, they can and still do produce magnificent works. Its the squandered past opportunities and inexcusable poor management of certain firms that I find so hard to stomach. Because UK manufacturing, including the boat building industry, can be much larger and healthier had the right policies and management been in place.

 

[MapisM]

The Germans, and particularly the French have a different take on State Aid than the British Govt.

Actually, on the matter of State aids, the British Govt doesn't need egg sucking lessons from anyone, methink.
It's neither Germans nor French (or Italians, for that matter) fault, if they prefer to throw them at the money moving industry, rather than at real production. :ambivalence:

 

[MapisM]

The Squadron 65 in front of me delayed my boat as the customer wanted a particular brand of stabiliser they had not previously fitted.

Out of pure curiosity J, which brand?
I take it they weren't Sleipner, since as we all know they had fitted some already!
Also the reasons of that client for speccing anything else would be interesting, if you heard about that.
Unless we're talking of gyros of course, 'cause aside from any pros and cons debates, it's obvious that if someone prefers not to have fins sticking out of the hull, Sleipner (as well as ABT, Naiad, CMC, etc.) are not an option.

 

[petem]

Out of pure curiosity J, which brand?
I take it they weren't Sleipner, since as we all know they had fitted some already!
Also the reasons of that client for speccing anything else would be interesting, if you heard about that.
Unless we're talking of gyros of course, 'cause aside from any pros and cons debates, it's obvious that if someone prefers not to have fins sticking out of the hull, Sleipner (as well as ABT, Naiad, CMC, etc.) are not an option.

Maybe the boat in front was Match I!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Actually, on the matter of State aids, the British Govt doesn't need egg sucking lessons from anyone, methink.
It's neither Germans nor French (or Italians, for that matter) fault, if they prefer to throw them at the money moving industry, rather than at real production. :ambivalence:

Give us an example of how the UK govt has thrown state aid at the UK finance industry in a way that hasn't been done in other Eurozone countries

 

[MapisM]

Give us an example of how the UK govt has thrown state aid at the UK finance industry in a way that hasn't been done in other Eurozone countries

Well, my reply to rafiki was simply along the lines of "let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...
Anyway, even if I'm not in the mood of browsing around for this kinda boring numbers, I'm pretty sure that the only reason why in absolute terms the UK didn't get the gold medal in this specific sort of weird world championship is that it was impossible to beat those guys on the other side of the Pond...

 

[MapisM]

Maybe the boat in front was Match I!

LOL, nice one, but jrudge was talking of 65 footers...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well, my reply to rafiki was simply along the lines of "let him who is without sin cast the first stone"...
Anyway, even if I'm not in the mood of browsing around for this kinda boring numbers, I'm pretty sure that the only reason why in absolute terms the UK didn't get the gold medal in this specific sort of weird world championship is that it was impossible to beat those guys on the other side of the Pond...

Well by the Pond, I guess you mean the English Channel in which I case I agree with you 100%. Europe most certainly has won every gold medal ever awarded for throwing state aid at bankrupt countries, clapped out industries, surplus agriculture, useless energy projects and redundant infrastructure. In fact if there was a Champions League for awarding state aid, Europe would win every year

 

[benjenbav]

Well by the Pond, I guess you mean the English Channel in which I case I agree with you 100%. Europe most certainly has won every gold medal ever awarded for throwing state aid at bankrupt countries, clapped out industries, surplus agriculture, useless energy projects and redundant infrastructure. In fact if there was a Champions League for awarding state aid, Europe would win every year

Surely the entire EU (and predecessors) was set up to support French agriculture? So, I think they made the trophy, got to keep it after a 60 years unbroken streak and got the rest of us to pay for it.

 

[rafiki_]

Actually, on the matter of State aids, the British Govt doesn't need egg sucking lessons from anyone, methink.
It's neither Germans nor French (or Italians, for that matter) fault, if they prefer to throw them at the money moving industry, rather than at real production. :ambivalence:

You are correct in that the Labour Govt bought out several banks, but these then became part or wholly owned by Govt, with assets to sell. State aid here comes into play when Govt throws money at the private sector. However I will now withdraw from this thread, as it risks becoming a p!ssing contest. I've given up on Crusty who thinks today's car plants are like Longbridge in the 70's. I'll get me coat and ...............

 

[jrudge]

I don't know. What I do know is they had never fitted them before and it took ages :-(

 

[crustysailor321]

You are correct in that the Labour Govt bought out several banks, but these then became part or wholly owned by Govt, with assets to sell. State aid here comes into play when Govt throws money at the private sector. However I will now withdraw from this thread, as it risks becoming a p!ssing contest. I've given up on Crusty who thinks today's car plants are like Longbridge in the 70's. I'll get me coat and ...............

I don't want to get into a pissing contest either, but you've been avoiding my issue from the very start and intentionally twisting my words. I tried not to respond to your insulting tone and sticked to the issue. Where did I say today's car plants are like the 70's? I never said that. I said that the manufacturing that is left in the UK today is a lot better...but in many cases under foreign ownership. Sure, the middle level managers and the workers are still British. But only now, have we figure out after much of the manufacturing is gone. And it didn't have to be that way.

I'm a forgiving person, so unlike you, I don't give up on people so easily.