Fairline - any news?

[petem]

I think that's almost certainly true, but it's a big step from there to the multi party conspiracy that KevB suggests.

I guess none of us know for sure, but I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

The simplest explanation for me is that BC couldn't turn the business round or sell it, so they gave it to the first people that would take it off their hands. WB had a woolly offer of funding from a third party so took a punt, as they were paying nothing to BC upfront so had little to lose, and when the funder got cold feet they had nowhere else to go but administration.

edit: I know it's nice to pin lots of the blame here on faceless investors, but let's not forget that BC poured tens of millions into the business, and ultimately it was the management that failed to make it profitable. For sure they had some difficult external factors to deal with post 2008, but they also, in my opinion, didn't develop a strong enough product line-up across the board. They had some winners for sure, but the hit rate wasn't high enough.

I agree that BC kept FL afloat for a few years. But I'd suggest that it was investor's money that BC poured into the business, not necessarily Moulton and crew's. Also, when you speak to people, for example dealers, I'd suggest that they atrribute the failure of FL to BC's directors, not Fairline's directors.

 

[MapisM]

I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

So am I, in general. But here, it just doesn't hold water.
It was crystal clear upfront, even for the most stupid investor who would have been in WB position, that there wasn't the slightest chance to earn anything from a takeover - even paying nothing for it.
And as much as I don't hold the likes of WB folks in high esteem, stupid they ain't.

The conspiracy theory is actually the simplest conclusion that can be drawn from what has been discussed so fat, when you think about it - which is the reason why I called BC and WB the Fox and the Cat in a previous post.
Correct me if I'm missing something, but the only result I've seen so far from this transaction is that BC got rid of a problem, executing (let's not forget that!) a new fixed and floating charge in their own favour in the meantime.
Don't ask me what was in it for WB, because based on what has been discussed the only logical answer would be nothing.
But if you accept my assumption that stupid they ain't, it's just a matter of fantasy to guess how BC found a way to compensate WB for such a favour... :ambivalence:

 

[petem]

It was crystal clear upfront, even for the most stupid investor who would have been in WB position, that there wasn't the slightest chance to earn anything from a takeover - even paying nothing for it.
And as much as I don't hold the likes of WB folks in high esteem, stupid they ain't.

P, what evidence do you have that they're not just plain stupid - as I've seen nothing to confirm this? Indeed, I've been told a number of stories of dealings with WB that gave me the impression that they thought they could make the business work. Furthermore, if this was the plan all along, what do WB get out of the process other than an even worse reputation than they already have? And looking at the accounts for their various businesses, if they're so smart, where are they making any money?

 

[MapisM]

P, what evidence do you have that they're not just plain stupid

None for WB specifically, but I dealt with several folks who are in the same business, and I've yet to find anyone I would call stupid, particularly when it comes to their own pockets.

Furthermore, if this was the plan all along, what do WB get out of the process

Well, that was covered with the last para of my previous post...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It was crystal clear upfront, even for the most stupid investor who would have been in WB position, that there wasn't the slightest chance to earn anything from a takeover - even paying nothing for it.
And as much as I don't hold the likes of WB folks in high esteem, stupid they ain't.

No stupid they ain't and as to why WB bought the company, a cursory glance at the other companies that WB have been involved in and the number of which have gone into administration will tell you that WB are nothing more than asset strippers. They buy failing companies (with a known brand name) for a song and then strip out and sell whatever assets they can. They then try to put the company into a prepack administration, hoping to buy back a debt free shell which they can sell on to another buyer with the brand name and the IP. All IMHO of course

As to why BC sold to WB, who knows but its likely that BC woke up one day and said not one more penny into Fairline but lets try to get out without the PR damage of the City Link closure. Along comes WB who offer to take the company off their hands and take all the flak of closing it as well. BC may have lost £34m but at least they're not plastered all over the papers as the unacceptable face of capitalism

 

[petem]

No stupid they ain't and as to why WB bought the company, a cursory glance at the other companies that WB have been involved in and the number of which have gone into administration will tell you that WB are nothing more than asset strippers. They buy failing companies (with a known brand name) for a song and then strip out and sell whatever assets they can. They then try to put the company into a prepack administration, hoping to buy back a debt free shell which they can sell on to another buyer with the brand name and the IP. All IMHO of course

Well I agree they've previously bought basket cases but do you have examples of them deliberately assett stripping / pre-packing / selling on the businesses? Wesley Barrell is the only business of theirs that I know of (there's a branch in Chelt) but its still trading - was that pre-packed? Are Fletcher still trading too?

As to why BC sold to WB, who knows but its likely that BC woke up one day and said not one more penny into Fairline but lets try to get out without the PR damage of the City Link closure. Along comes WB who offer to take the company off their hands and take all the flak of closing it as well. BC may have lost £34m but at least they're not plastered all over the papers as the unacceptable face of capitalism

Agreed!

 

[petem]

Well, that was covered with the last para of my previous post...

This isn't IT you know!

 

[DTIM]

Are Fletcher still trading too?



Not sure about Fletcher but I note they have a recent unsatisfied CCJ since the takeover

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well I agree they've previously bought basket cases but do you have examples of them deliberately assett stripping / pre-packing / selling on the businesses?

Mr Ayiaz Ahmed has been a director of 15 closed companies most of which have adverse information against them. To be a director of 1 closed company is unfortunate, to be a director of 2 closed companies is incompetent but to be a director of 15 closed companies is deliberate. Also just one day after he became a director of Fairline, he set up another company called Abundant Marine Group.

Draw your own conclusions, Pete

 

[Nick_H]

So am I, in general. But here, it just doesn't hold water.
It was crystal clear upfront, even for the most stupid investor who would have been in WB position, that there wasn't the slightest chance to earn anything from a takeover - even paying nothing for it.
And as much as I don't hold the likes of WB folks in high esteem, stupid they ain't.

I don't know if they're stupid or not, but they were offered a "heads you win, tails you don't lose" by BC, because they didn't have to put a penny in upfront. If they thought they could get a third party investor involved to cover working capital and fund a recovery plan, then maybe the business could be turned round and either run at a profit or sold to the next Dalian Wanda. They may well have recognised that the chances of success were low, but the cost of failure was nil, so it's not that hard to believe that they would take the chance.

 

[TwoHooter]

They may well have recognised that the chances of success were low, but the cost of failure was nil, so it's not that hard to believe that they would take the chance.

But the cost of failure is not nil if it includes reputation damage.
Of course if you haven't got much of a reputation then that cost reduces. But it's never nil.
By the way the current Companies House record for Wessex Bristol (Company No. 07568137) includes these two entries:
Status: Active - Proposal to Strike off
Next Accounts Due: 30/09/2015 OVERDUE
I'd love to take a peek at the due diligence which Moulton's crew did before they sold Fairline to WB.

 

[petem]

I don't know if they're stupid or not, but they were offered a "heads you win, tails you don't lose" by BC, because they didn't have to put a penny in upfront. If they thought they could get a third party investor involved to cover working capital and fund a recovery plan, then maybe the business could be turned round and either run at a profit or sold to the next Dalian Wanda. They may well have recognised that the chances of success were low, but the cost of failure was nil, so it's not that hard to believe that they would take the chance.

Yep, and as the cost of failure was nil, I understand WB didn't even do any due diligence.

I'd love to take a peek at the due diligence which Moulton's crew did before they sold Fairline to WB.

About the same amount of DD that WB undertook I imagine. After all they couldn't lose from the deal either.

 

[rudder]

All this talk is negative and speculation...WB were chancers..they didn't have a pot to piss in and took a punt..they may have believed that they could bleed a merge FB and Fletcher..the Fletcher mould tools were to be delivered to FB in the November I hear..I also hear rumour that Bates maybe the buyer..let's hope that's the case as if it's another bunch of venture capitalists that buy it then forget a Fairline with a future..I believe that for the company to have a future it needs you, ,,,the Loyal fairline customer to have confidence, trust, and the ability to give imput and lead the company as to what you the customer wants, and to know Fairline will listen and be open, as Sam Newington would.... Remember what WB did with pension payments...that behaviour is not the Fairline way..let's hope the Buyer is a boat person..

 

[KevB]

If it is Bates, they were a pleasure to do business with when I bought my boat.

 

[Whitelighter]

I think Bates buying it is just wishful thinking.

I can see why it's appealing but I can't see they have the cash so would be leveraged hugely.
Even the Barke bros. wouldn't have pockets deep enough to run a boat manufacturer

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think Bates buying it is just wishful thinking.

I can see why it's appealing but I can't see they have the cash so would be leveraged hugely.
Even the Barke bros. wouldn't have pockets deep enough to run a boat manufacturer

Agreed unless Bates also has that mystery rich Arab like WB

 

[MapisM]

This isn't IT you know!

P, your statement is a pristine example of what an old wives' tale is.

I can assure you, based on first hand experiences, that the homeland of the real masters in INDUSTRIAL shortcuts, in spite of IT reputation, is DE.
So far, laughing was a pretty common first reaction, whenever I said that - and I've been saying that for decades.
But for some reason, nowadays I don't need to explain that anymore. Not even to Germans.

Otoh, here we are talking of FINANCIAL rather than industrial shortcuts.
Now, do tell P, why do I have a funny feeling that I don't need to explain to anyone here who the real masters in this field are...?

Mind, in a sense I wish Italians were as good as your old wives' tale pretends we are, because overall the Country would probably be in better shape.
But I must give credit where credit is due: we are just amateurs, who can't compete with the majors.

 

[MapisM]

I don't know if they're stupid or not, but they were offered a "heads you win, tails you don't lose" by BC...

I see your point, BUT (and I'm now replying also to Deleted User post #565) it's the timeframe that makes this or any other possibility extremely unlikely. It was all too fast for not being deliberate and organized in advance, imho.

Anyway, one thing is for sure: I'm not holding my breath waiting for the only folks who know the truth to post here and set us straight.
Also because, IF the "conspiracy" theory would be correct, that's the last thing they would admit anyway... :ambivalence:

 

[Time Out]

Well Bates did used to build boats !

 

[petem]

P, your statement is a pristine example of what an old wives' tale is.

I can assure you, based on first hand experiences, that the homeland of the real masters in INDUSTRIAL shortcuts, in spite of IT reputation, is DE.
So far, laughing was a pretty common first reaction, whenever I said that - and I've been saying that for decades.
But for some reason, nowadays I don't need to explain that anymore. Not even to Germans.

Otoh, here we are talking of FINANCIAL rather than industrial shortcuts.
Now, do tell P, why do I have a funny feeling that I don't need to explain to anyone here who the real masters in this field are...?

Mind, in a sense I wish Italians were as good as your old wives' tale pretends we are, because overall the Country would probably be in better shape.
But I must give credit where credit is due: we are just amateurs, who can't compete with the majors.

Whilst my comment was rather flippant I really don't buy the idea that BC have incentivised WB to take on the business in a way that is not transparent. The risk of this to their reputation is too great. My question to you and Mike is - if this was all so cleverly choreographed, why does it appear that WB have been stiffed by BC with the result that WB make nothing from the whole saga? From where I'm standing it looks like a shambles. As for speed, if no DD is done, very little elapsed time is actually requid to offload a business and in any case BC (the smart ones here) could have prepared the deal in advance whilst looking for a buyer (for want of a better word).