Extending the range of your Torqeedo outboard with a portable Honda Generator

[AntarcticPilot]

Hmm. But I was particularly wondering if there are good reasons why a hybrid electric arrangement wouldn't suit a larger, drier application like a small cruising yacht, hitherto reliant solely upon a petrol outboard.

I seem to remember Top Gear concluding that the Fisker car's use of a petrol engine to generate a current which drove electric motors in the wheels, was more efficient than connecting the I/C engine directly to the wheels. It sounded improbable, but pleasing.

If a boat's propeller requires less variation in RPM, isn't this possibility even better suited to boat-auxiliaries than automobiles?

Hybrid powerchains are very widespread, from diesel electric locomotives to ships. The idea is that the internal combustion bit can be optimized to run constantly at the peak of its efficiency curve, while the electric motors provide the flexibility in torque and speed that are required in many applications. There are a few true hybrid motor cars out there; the Ampera and Volt come to mind. A friend even has a hybrid narrowboat - they charge the batteries on a solar panel, but when the batteries run low, a generator kicks in. They reckon that a week's solar gives a weekend's worth of cruising, but for longer trips, the generator system gives them greater range.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

2000 W @ 12 V is Munch more than 5 A, more like 140 A
Runing the OB in hybrid mode it's more than plenty.
Another solution is to use a battery that can be charged faster, lifePO4?
charge faster, more usable AH/kg

Yeah, but it's actually 1600W at 230V so the output is around 7A. Admittedly I was assuming that the 10A was input to the charger at 230V - if that's 10A output then it's not going to put enough into the battery to overcome the discharge rate at anything other than very low throttle settings. Even assuming 30V for the battery at 10A that's 300W assuming 100% efficiency - at about 90% that's a 1/3 hp roughly.

 

[rptb1]

(Once again Mr A. Pilot has written what I was going to.)

... The idea is that the internal combustion bit can be optimized to run constantly at the peak of its efficiency curve, while the electric motors provide the flexibility in torque and speed that are required in many applications. ...

The thing is that boats don't need much flexibility on torque and speed, unlike diesel-electric locomotives, and every time I've looked into a hybrid powerchain on a typical yacht it just doesn't work out. I very much doubt it can be made to work well at dinghy scale! It's a bit like wondering whether a regenerative breaking system would work well on a boat.

But still, I'm just as interested as the OP in whether someone has actually tried it out and what happened.

(Aside: I've been looking at converting my outboard (which is also my inboard) to LPG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxEeTyI7ZA4 )

 

[Daydream believer]

Have you thought about a pair of oars?

Why not just have a spare battery, or do they cost a fortune

 

[AngusMcDoon]

It's a bit like wondering whether a regenerative breaking system would work well on a boat.

You could have a system where when you want to stop your boat, like coming into a marina berth for example, you lobbed a big sea anchor overboard connected by a cable to a big drum which drives a hefty flywheel up to speed. Next time you want to motor out of your berth just connect the flywheel back to the big drum via a gearbox to reverse the direction and you will be pulled back out reusing all the kinetic energy that otherwise would have been needlessly lost. Do you think it's a goer, or is it as daft an idea as powering an electric outboard with a heavy, inconvenient, non waterproof, wrong voltage, petrol generator that would deposit its poisonous exhaust right where you are sitting?

 

[rptb1]

... connected by a cable to a big drum ...

Don't be ridiculous. It's far simpler to use a rubber anchor rode to a bottom anchor and bungee (or "spring") yourself off the pontoon.

(I'm going to be giggling all day about that flywheel.)

 

[RupertW]

Have you thought about a pair of oars?

Why not just have a spare battery, or do they cost a fortune

We have the old petrol outboard but will probably get rid of it this season as we've only fired it up to ensure it's still working not because we need it.

The Torqueedo is a lot faster than rowing a 3m rib, even at 30% throttle and can make a few journeys from anchorage to town quays before needing recharging - which it gets from the main engine when we motor, or occasionally when tied up in a marina.

But to answer your question - the Torqueedo batteries are murderously expensive but not needed as a backup - a plain 12v car battery could sit in the dinghy topping up the Torqueedo via it's 12v charge socket and I know some people do this - but not sure why the need to.

 

[Lakesailor]

Don't apologise, I wasn't here back then and I am thinking electric.

Things have moved on with Toqueedo and battery technology but the point is still interesting. How about putting the generator in a tender with sound proofing?
Also, places like Rutland Water have banned petrol outboards but is this a possible loophole? Similarly, in lakes where electrics are exempt from payment.

Which lake? Or do you mean small lakes in general?

All powered boats on Windermere, whether in use, moored, for private use or business must have a current Windermere Registration. This includes any boat with an outboard or electric motor or any other mechanical means of propulsion.

http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visi...windermere/thingstodowindermere/windermerereg

 

[rogerthebodger]

This is what you need to increase the range of and electric outboard.

 

[Greenheart]

...connect the flywheel back to the big drum via a gearbox to reverse the direction and you will be pulled out reusing all the kinetic energy...do you think it's a goer?

Not as we know 'goers' at present, undoubtedly.

But it must be just as certain that many systems whose 'obvious' benefits we unthinkingly enjoy today, initially took shape amid discouraging difficulties, and weren't assisted at all towards success by the jeering of easily-contented humourists. Sorry Angus, but I did hope to awaken this old thread without the obvious problems being reiterated ad nauseum.

I haven't wanted a motor boat since the eighties, and I'm sure the more time afloat that I can sail without the noise of internal combustion, the happier I'll always be. I'll be glad as long as I don't passage-plan based upon the constant availability of an I/C auxiliary (and I'll be glad not to be a slave to schedules and crew-members bursting for shore or bar)...

...so I'd be glad of a hybrid system to provide power for berthing and some limited passage-making progress, without reducing the sailing element to a picturesque secondary option.

I can see that hybrids are still fiendishly expensive, but at their best, li-ion batteries driving something like a Torqeedo Cruise 2.0, with expansive solar-charging and a back-up suitcase-generator, aboard a small performance-orientated cruiser, is a concept I find much more interesting than limiting - it'd require passage planning and plan-B forethought like my current dinghy-cruising does. I've always hated the kind of sailing which descends almost inevitably into a long, grimly noisy motor for home when the wind doesn't oblige.

No point trying to sell such pleasant purity of purpose to the habitually pragmatical - but they're welcome to stick rigidly to what they know. I wonder why they dropped in, here?

 

[Iliade]

240v in a dinghy on choppy salt water. What could possibly go wrong?

Surely the best way to extend the range of any motor boat is to fit one of these:

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...GrQClg&usg=AFQjCNHC6b8eUoAs0Ey56BFwg52z5u0llQ

 

[AngusMcDoon]

No point trying to sell such pleasant purity of purpose to the habitually pragmatical - but they're welcome to stick rigidly to what they know.

Lovely flowery language, but I see it more as not living in engineering cloud cuckoo land if you actually want to get anywhere.

 

[Floyd Raser]

Which lake? Or do you mean small lakes in general?
http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/visi...windermere/thingstodowindermere/windermerereg

I confess, I am guilty of posting without fully checking the facts. I based that on an enquiry I made to the then warden at Windermere just after the introduction of the speed limits. Unless my memory is letting me down, and it does, frequently, I remember him telling me the registration fee was proportionate to the horsepower of the engine, not including electrics.
I guess it's like tax free cars: they catch up with you in the end.

What I clearly remember is the warden's rant about the speed limit: he said he couldn't understand why anyone would want to put a boat on Windermere now the speed limit was in force. He said it was now a very dangerous place because there were so few boats out there that if you went overboard, no-one would see you and you could drown.
No? Really?

 

[Greenheart]

...I see it as...cloud cuckoo land if you actually want to get anywhere.

I don't think it's as fanciful as that. I can see hybrid power won't suit sailors accustomed to regularly relying on oil to get where they're heading on time; but an electric alternative is scarcely cloud cuckoo land, especially if it's genuinely regarded as auxiliary, ie for use in a fairly specific minority of situations. I reckon even electric’s range limitations will only heighten a yachtsman's sailing competence…as well as allowing a permanent peace on board which many yachtsmen’s families only experience when the engine won't start!

Besides, if as you say, I really "wanted to get anywhere", I'd hardly buy a boat whose design primarily intends use of the wind, to do so. The pleasure of owning a sailboat, for me, is managing to manipulate elemental forces by finesse and learning, and thereby getting a hefty hull unhurriedly from one pretty place to another. It's obvious by extension that the departure, arrival and every mile of such a passage will necessarily be less rewarding if I routinely rely on a noisy old internal combustion engine to achieve them...

...surely most of us who willingly challenge ourselves with the enjoyable and interesting inconvenience of sailing, feel that way about the moment when we switch on the engine?

I'm not sure I envy those who don't.

 

[Tranona]

Unfortunately in the real world, those that have tried electric (and hybrid) have found it severely limits what they can do with the boat. There are of course particular circumstances where it is possible to enjoy cruising yachts without the benefit of petrol or diesel power as the odd persons who cruise without any form of auxilliary show, or on very small boats,

It is the age old argument that pure electricity is limited by the storage of energy (and its generation) that limits its application in small boats, and hybrids still need an IC engine to generate power in larger boats that can accommodate the energy storage capacity. unless the boat is power only and operated for extended periods there are few advantages over straight IC and considerable cost, complexity and weight penalties.

It is for these reasons that neither has made any impression on the sailboat auxilliary market. As far as I can see there is nothing on the horizon in developments of electric or hybrid technologies that is going to change that. All the development effort is going into applications which are very different from our applications and where there are real benefits. The millions being spent of F1, Le Mans and Formula E on hybrid and electric power (particularly energy storage and generation) are showing through in road vehicles already. Long time before any of that filters down to marine applications, just as it took years for IC engines to get into boats in the early decades of the last century.

So, Dan, dream on while the rest of us benefit from what we have.

 

[Floyd Raser]

I don't think it's as fanciful as that. I can see hybrid power won't suit sailors accustomed to regularly relying on oil to get where they're heading on time; but an electric alternative is scarcely cloud cuckoo land, especially if it's genuinely regarded as auxiliary, ie for use in a fairly specific minority of situations. I reckon even electric’s range limitations will only heighten a yachtsman's sailing competence…as well as allowing a permanent peace on board which many yachtsmen’s families only experience when the engine won't start!

Besides, if as you say, I really "wanted to get anywhere", I'd hardly buy a boat whose design primarily intends use of the wind, to do so. The pleasure of owning a sailboat, for me, is managing to manipulate elemental forces by finesse and learning, and thereby getting a hefty hull unhurriedly from one pretty place to another. It's obvious by extension that the departure, arrival and every mile of such a passage will necessarily be less rewarding if I routinely rely on a noisy old internal combustion engine to achieve them...

...surely most of us who willingly challenge ourselves with the enjoyable and interesting inconvenience of sailing, feel that way about the moment when we switch on the engine?

I'm not sure I envy those who don't.

I wish I could write like that; I would probably sell more books!:encouragement:

I think we were laughing at the prospect of practical electric cars a few years ago. Give it a few more years and electrics will be a natural choice.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I can see hybrid power won't suit sailors accustomed to regularly relying on oil to get where they're heading on time...

And where is the energy for this hybrid electrically powered boat going to come from if it's not oil? If you think it's going to come from solar, then you haven't done the sums and it's back to engineering cloud cuckoo land. Oil is energy dense. Solar panels are energy sparse. To get the same energy from my 30 Watt solar panel as is contained in a gallon of diesel it would have to be in bright sunlight for nearly 1500 hours. That's like leaving it out in Spain for a whole summer. It just doesn't add up.

The only way hybrid power in a boat can be made to work the way most people would want them to with current technology is to have an oil powered generator powering an electric motor. Given that it doesn't really add any advantages over direct drive but adds greatly to the complexity, cost and weight as technology stands at the moment there just isn't any point. So when the wind dies and I don't want to left out all night with sails flopping I'll start my engine, just like everyone else.

 

[Lakesailor]

What I clearly remember is the warden's rant about the speed limit: he said he couldn't understand why anyone would want to put a boat on Windermere now the speed limit was in force. He said it was now a very dangerous place because there were so few boats out there that if you went overboard, no-one would see you and you could drown.
No? Really?

The Wardens had it foisted on them. The Wardens are employed by the SLDC (South Lakes District Council). They see their job as helping people and keeping people within the rules.
They didn't sign up to be speed trap cops. They also police the boat registrations which is really done on behalf of the LDNPA(Lake District National Park Authority).
They did foist off the speed checking to the Lake Rangers, who are LDNPA.

 

[William_H]

The concept of using a Torquedo with an internal combustion engine is not so absurd. As said many vehicles and ships use diesel electric for propulsion.
I don't think the honda gen would be very good although it may help extend the range a little if used continuously.
What would be needed for a 30v torquedo would be an engine driving a 24v alternator (generator) with bespoke regulator to push it up to 30v (or the precise voltage to feed the motor but not charge the batteries too much. This alternator would be directly coupled to an engine which is running at its best speed for economy and power output. It would need some experiment to get the alternator speed required for the max output from the engine correct speed. (gear drive ratio if necessary) I guess you would have to accept a power inefficency of around 50% so 4HP engine to give 2HP at the torquedo.
Now the whole set up would only be suitable for a displacement boat. Too heavy for a RIB.
However as said perhaps the perol o/b is still the best bet unless you really are not permitted to use petrol o/b. olewill

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I think we were laughing at the prospect of practical electric cars a few years ago. Give it a few more years and electrics will be a natural choice.

Until the problem of recharging time is solved, if ever, they will never be more than a minority choice as they just don't fit in with most people's lifestyle. That explains why sales are so poor despite the guvmint subsidy - most people are sensible enough to see that flowery language is no substitute for practicality and cost.