Extending the range of your Torqeedo outboard with a portable Honda Generator

[Tranona]

Couldn't you call any early adopter naive? Isn't that missing the point of early adoption? I think it's been important to industry occasionally.

That assumes there is something to adopt - which there is not in this context. It is like saying you can be a little bit pregnant saying that you can adjust your power usage enough to be able to use electricity when it is an all or nothing - there is no workable electric only propulsion system suitable for sailing auxiliary use. There are electric propulsion systems that are used effectively in other kinds of boats which do not have the same constraints but are more like electric road vehicles in the way they acquire, store and use energy.

There does not seem to be any new technology on the horizon for even the most enthusiastic early adopter to try as all the research and development effort is going into completely different applications. Maybe there will be some spin off in the future but it is likely to be accidental rather than a specific objective.

 

[Floyd Raser]

That is not true. I have no fear that electric propulsion is going to be foisted on me in the forseeable future.

What we, the engineers who you dismiss as just being negative, are trying to point out is the engineering naivity of your idea. The technology does not exist for what you want to do in any realistic, practical and economically worthwhile way. And there's no indication either that it will in the near future to make it worthwhile for leisure boats. It's been pointed out to you that hybrid systems are suitable for large units that run a high proportion of the time - ships, trains etc. Can you not see that is not how leisure boats are used, especially sailing boats?

You now have the figures from Antarctic Pilot and myself for battery storage capabilities and power production from solar panels. Why don't you do the maths, because then you may be convinced of the problems. Is having 80 square metres of solar panels or 4.5 tonnes of batteries practical on a small sailing boat? And what would that all cost to install?

And you "Engineers" dismiss us as "Dreamers". I've been doing the maths since my first post on this thread. Taking the present pace of technological development, it is a mathematical probabilty that electric propulsion over great distances will be practical and affordable in the near future.

Arctic Pilot's 4.5 tonner with 4.455 tonnes of li-ion batteries sounds scary indeed but if he painted the water line a bit higher that should do it.
Or take away the 90kgs (aprox 1kg per litre) of fuel he wouldn't now need. And maybe the electric motor weighs less than the diesel? No figures available. And how much ballast is lurking down below? We could chuck that over the side to bring it up a bit and replace it something equally dense, like batteries. Engineers? Latteral thinking needed here I think.

What about Lithium Polymer batteries which are apparently 20 percent lighter? I'm afraid I don't know the density stuff you quote but google it, unless you already know?
I was advised today by an electronics boffin to google Tesler cars and supercapacitors. The cars to see present developments and supercapacitors are the future - no batteries. I put to him a quote from this thread about wanting to pull in to a service area and top up a car quickly for a 300 mile trip and he said it will happen soon. He works for EDF.

Back in the early days of motoring there were different types of petrol until they were standardised for the benefit of all. LPG: in a car you fill via a pipe, in my caravan I exchange the cylinder for a recharged one. Hang on! I think I may be on to something here: what if we all had standard sized batteries (or "energy pods" or whatever a bank of supercapacitors would be called!) that we exchanged instead of hanging around to charge. Just like my torch.
Probably a non-starter as I think supercapacitors charge instantly.

Anyway, I salute Torqeedo for being brave enough to sink (ha) money into the marine trade.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Many seem to agree that water will eventually solve our energy needs.

Storage won't be one of our problems.

When you sail without having an engine, it suddenly makes your cruising area massive. For small boats, and wanting to rub up against
nature a bit closer than normal the slight extra help from an electric outboard could make all the difference . I can see where Dan is coming
from.

You could of course, ditch the engine completely when you retire because of no work on Monday.

 

[Tranona]

And you "Engineers" dismiss us as "Dreamers". I've been doing the maths since my first post on this thread. Taking the present pace of technological development, it is a mathematical probabilty that electric propulsion over great distances will be practical and affordable in the near future.

Arctic Pilot's 4.5 tonner with 4.455 tonnes of li-ion batteries sounds scary indeed but if he painted the water line a bit higher that should do it.
Or take away the 90kgs (aprox 1kg per litre) of fuel he wouldn't now need. And maybe the electric motor weighs less than the diesel? No figures available. And how much ballast is lurking down below? We could chuck that over the side to bring it up a bit and replace it something equally dense, like batteries. Engineers? Latteral thinking needed here I think.

What about Lithium Polymer batteries which are apparently 20 percent lighter? I'm afraid I don't know the density stuff you quote but google it, unless you already know?
I was advised today by an electronics boffin to google Tesler cars and supercapacitors. The cars to see present developments and supercapacitors are the future - no batteries. I put to him a quote from this thread about wanting to pull in to a service area and top up a car quickly for a 300 mile trip and he said it will happen soon. He works for EDF.

Back in the early days of motoring there were different types of petrol until they were standardised for the benefit of all. LPG: in a car you fill via a pipe, in my caravan I exchange the cylinder for a recharged one. Hang on! I think I may be on to something here: what if we all had standard sized batteries (or "energy pods" or whatever a bank of supercapacitors would be called!) that we exchanged instead of hanging around to charge. Just like my torch.
Probably a non-starter as I think supercapacitors charge instantly.

Anyway, I salute Torqeedo for being brave enough to sink (ha) money into the marine trade.

All this development is aimed at road vehicles where the potential market is in the millions of units. The current constraints are not particularly in the powering of the vehicles, but in the recharging infrastructure. at a guess I would say that more Tesla cars are sold in the US than sailing boats in the whole world. How are you going to provide charging facilities for the tiny number of electric powered yachts that might be sold?

Where electric power has been successful for small boats has been where they are operated for limited periods at low speed in a controlled environment - hire boats on lakes and rivers that run a few hours a day well within the battery capacity and then recharged from the mains at night - just like fork lift trucks, golf carts, access platforms etc. Completely different pattern of usage from that desired by Dan.

Hybrid power looks attractive at first, particularly as it is used successfully in a lot of commercial applications, but again the cost, weight, size, complexity (plus usage patterns) mean that it shows no advantage over IC only. Nigel Calder ran a big EU funded project using hybrid power in a Malo 45 - results written up extensively in the yachting press with the general conclusion that it showed no significant benefits in terms of energy consumption.

Torqeedo have had limited success in a very limited part of the market and as soon as they tried to expand into sectors that demand more power and longer duration they hit the barriers inherent in the technology.

As I suggested earlier there might be an incidental spin off from the millions being poured into R&D on electric propulsion, but it is focused on vehicles and aircraft where not only is the potential vastly greater, but the provision of infrastructure to make it practical is much easier.

 

[Mctavish]

That assumes there is something to adopt - which there is not in this context....there is no workable electric only propulsion system suitable for sailing auxiliary use.

Surely you're contradicting yourself - so as to ignore the definition of "early adopter".

 

[Floyd Raser]

All this development is aimed at road vehicles where the potential market is in the millions of units. The current constraints are not particularly in the powering of the vehicles, but in the recharging infrastructure. at a guess I would say that more Tesla cars are sold in the US than sailing boats in the whole world. How are you going to provide charging facilities for the tiny number of electric powered yachts that might be sold?

Where electric power has been successful for small boats has been where they are operated for limited periods at low speed in a controlled environment - hire boats on lakes and rivers that run a few hours a day well within the battery capacity and then recharged from the mains at night - just like fork lift trucks, golf carts, access platforms etc. Completely different pattern of usage from that desired by Dan.

Hybrid power looks attractive at first, particularly as it is used successfully in a lot of commercial applications, but again the cost, weight, size, complexity (plus usage patterns) mean that it shows no advantage over IC only. Nigel Calder ran a big EU funded project using hybrid power in a Malo 45 - results written up extensively in the yachting press with the general conclusion that it showed no significant benefits in terms of energy consumption.

Torqeedo have had limited success in a very limited part of the market and as soon as they tried to expand into sectors that demand more power and longer duration they hit the barriers inherent in the technology.

As I suggested earlier there might be an incidental spin off from the millions being poured into R&D on electric propulsion, but it is focused on vehicles and aircraft where not only is the potential vastly greater, but the provision of infrastructure to make it practical is much easier.

Absolutely. Nobody is saying R&D for boats is the way forward. How many boats have marinised car engines? The technology developed for cars, aircraft and other more commercial areas will be stolen by the marine trade as in the past. It may then be tweaked for boats.

 

[maxcampbell]

I have some experience of electric boating. I've cruised the whole of the Thames, the Lee, the Stort, the Great Ouse, the Nene and quite a few canals, and wrote half a dozen pieces about it in Anglia Afloat.

I've also had experience of using a Torqeedo outboard as an auxiliary on a sailing cruiser at sea.

The OP's idea is not stupid, it's just an idea that won't appeal to a lot of people, and I do see Dan's point - if it doesn't appeal to you, then the people it does appeal to do get pissed off when they're told why it shouldn't appeal to anyone.

If you are convinced that a Torqeedo is ok for your tender, then for occassional longer trips the question is "How can I get a genny to supply a suitably configured electrical supply?". I don't know, but I'd be interested to see replies along this line, rather than replies telling me it's the wrong question.

 

[Greenheart]

Well said, sir! :encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Surely you're contradicting yourself - so as to ignore the definition of "early adopter".

Not at all. If there is nothing to "adopt" - how can you be an early adopter?

Early adopters will appear when a potentially suitable product appears - before that happens they are only dreamers.

 

[Tranona]

If you are convinced that a Torqeedo is ok for your tender, then for occassional longer trips the question is "How can I get a genny to supply a suitably configured electrical supply?". I don't know, but I'd be interested to see replies along this line, rather than replies telling me it's the wrong question.

That is the constraint and why the larger Torqeedo is so limited. The question about whether a portable genny can be used has been done to death - it introduces a whole new range of constraints that limit practicality. Portable gennies pre date the development of Torqeedo, but nobody, least of all the manufacturers have seen the "potential" to link the two together to provide a sort of hybrid solution.

If there are "early adopters" for this "solution" - where are they? Why has nobody actually done it and reported on their experiences?

There you are, Dan somebody else thinks it might work. Stop dreaming and talking and just do it. What is there to lose? Prove us all wrong.

 

[rptb1]

Rewinding to the OP, here's my summary.

I just wondered ...Has anyone tried this out?

Nobody in the thread seems to have tried it out, no.

I could imagine the senario where you want to go somewhere beyond normal range, then the generator would keep you going.

The generator is unlikely to keep up and so won't “keep you going”. But if you're prepared to wait then it could extend your range.

You still have the advantages of a grease, dirt and impellor free lightweight outboard with more range for the times its needed.

Or possibly some time after it is needed. And you have the disadvantage of the generator, its fuel, weight, etc.

Any examples?

Not from anybody here, it seems.

If you have a Torqeedo and a generator (or can borrow one) then do try it out (but perhaps not in a dinghy) and see what happens. I would be delighted to be surprised!

 

[Lon nan Gruagach]

Not at all. If there is nothing to "adopt" - how can you be an early adopter?

Early adopters will appear when a potentially suitable product appears - before that happens they are only dreamers.

Right now there are dreamers flying personal jet packs, hover boards and hover bikes some people just make their dreams reality.

 

[GHA]

http://www.elcomotoryachts.com/

 

[maxcampbell]

The question about whether a portable genny can be used has been done to death

No it hasn't, what has is whether it's a good idea. What hasn't been answered, except, I think in one post where it was suggested to feed there Torqeedo 230v charger from the 230v output of the genny, is how.

I would like to know whether there is an alternative to this. How easy is it to source a 12v to 30v transformer, for example.

I am considering hybrid propulsion for the small sail cruiser I'm building, but that would be an inboard Lynch motor fed from 12v lead acid batteries, which themselves would be chargeable from solar, shore power and an onboard genny. My main objection to that is that the only place for the batteries is under the bunks, which I don't fancy.

 

[maxcampbell]

The generator is unlikely to keep up and so won't “keep you going”.

It would undoubtedly keep you going if you went slow enough - which, it is true, may not give you enough thrust to combat wind or tide, but for a once-a-year trip up a river, it would be sufficient.

 

[rptb1]

It would undoubtedly keep you going if you went slow enough - which, it is true, may not give you enough thrust to combat wind or tide, but for a once-a-year trip up a river, it would be sufficient.

Right — there's going to be some rate of consumption that it keeps up with, but would it meet the OP's requirements? That's why he needs to try it and find out.

 

[dartmoor]

Several praisers here for Torqeedo. Having had one myself (and sold it to someone who knew they would only be on a small lake), I too would have some faintn praise. At the moment the cost benefit equation is completely wrong. The 3hp equivalent 1003 has a rrp of nearly £1,500. And the battery will lose up to 30% of its capacity in 5 years, and the seals for the motor need replacing, according to Torqeedo, after 5 years. So really in depreciation terms that's five years of use before it becomes uneconomic. So that's £300 per year to have one.

To sell this to mass market, it would need to be much much cheaper. The price is probably quicker to solve than the upping of the power capacity. The know how would therefore have to be sold to the far east for it to be mass produced in order for it not to be a novel product for wealthy early adopters, hobbyists and enthusiasts.

I doubt it does much for the planet however. From my understanding lithium takes a bit of carbon to extract and more carbon to get into a battery, that will be toxic, and have to be disposed of carefully at end of life.

Best most sustainable forms of propulsion are wind and oars! For me, an auxiliary is still a petrol proposition - but my engine uses less than half a litre an hour when I do use it. So I think that's not a bad compromise for the moment.

 

[RupertW]

Several praisers here for Torqeedo. Having had one myself (and sold it to someone who knew they would only be on a small lake), I too would have some faintn praise. At the moment the cost benefit equation is completely wrong. The 3hp equivalent 1003 has a rrp of nearly £1,500. And the battery will lose up to 30% of its capacity in 5 years, and the seals for the motor need replacing, according to Torqeedo, after 5 years. So really in depreciation terms that's five years of use before it becomes uneconomic. So that's £300 per year to have one.

To sell this to mass market, it would need to be much much cheaper. The price is probably quicker to solve than the upping of the power capacity. The know how would therefore have to be sold to the far east for it to be mass produced in order for it not to be a novel product for wealthy early adopters, hobbyists and enthusiasts.

I doubt it does much for the planet however. From my understanding lithium takes a bit of carbon to extract and more carbon to get into a battery, that will be toxic, and have to be disposed of carefully at end of life.

Best most sustainable forms of propulsion are wind and oars! For me, an auxiliary is still a petrol proposition - but my engine uses less than half a litre an hour when I do use it. So I think that's not a bad compromise for the moment.

I like ours as the engine for our 3m rib - usually anchorage to town quay and back. The depreciation isn't really quite that bad as it's only the battery that would need replacing which is a little less than half the cost of the engine, and I suspect may be a lot better and worth an upgrade in 5 years time. My big question is how long the rest will last, but that could be quite a while.
Recharging is just plugging it into the main battery bank which barely notices the top up.

 

[Lakesailor]

On demand energy for propulsion of tender.

 

[charles_reed]

It would be simpler and more satisfactory to carry a small petrol outboard for back up


In fact you could the leave the electric one behind!

I'd second VicS suggestion.
An alternative would be to have a couple of spare batteries, but recharging such beasts on a 12v only supply really rules that out.
A 2 stroke OB of 2.5-3.5hp is about the same weight and considerably more useful than an electric Torqueedo.
There are a couple of places where you can still buy them (2-stroke outboards) legally in the British Isles.