EV technology for your next boat ???

westernman said:
I used to run my Citroen CX on 100% bio-diesel made from rapeseed back in 1995 or so in Munich. 0% fossil fuel content. Most of the cars filling up at the place I used were Mercedes Taxis.

The exhaust smelt like a chip shop. The price was slightly less than the price of normal diesel from a super market. Fuel consumption was supposed to be slightly worse, but I could not measure a difference in consumption or performance.
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The government killed off the chip shop cars because they weren’t taxable
 
flaming said:
I think the ICE on boats issue is a lot about optics and politics. I'm actually amazed that no politician has yet said "wait a minute, we're phasing out new petrol fiestas, but not new motorboats that use more fuel in an afternoon than a fiesta uses in a year..." The optics of "1 rule for the stretched single mum who needs a car to get to work, and one for the rich people with big boats" isn't a great one. Especially where you've phased one out because of the CO2 footprint, but not the one with a much higher CO2 footprint....
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Phasing the Fiesta is as wrong as phasing the motor-boat.
Both of them are stupid and brain-less thinking.

The current EV rhetoric is that someone betted heavy on them and if they fail they go down with them.
Also with the current far East development, what we do in Europe and USA will make very difference to the planet, as these emerging economies are already today x5 what the developed West is doing in emissions.
Climate always changes, but even if the World goes all green today and we continue to dismantle the green lungs of the planet (Amazon forest etc) it will serve to nothing for it to be more twisted then it already is.
Cause in reality it will be a bit twisted rather then going up or down.
 
westernman said:
I used to run my Citroen CX on 100% bio-diesel made from rapeseed back in 1995 or so in Munich. 0% fossil fuel content. Most of the cars filling up at the place I used were Mercedes Taxis.

The exhaust smelt like a chip shop. The price was slightly less than the price of normal diesel from a super market. Fuel consumption was supposed to be slightly worse, but I could not measure a difference in consumption or performance.
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I knew a Brickie that used to fill his old Citroen van of with cooking oil fresh from the supermarket shelf
 
I was involved as lead M&E Consultant to University of Essex 5+ years ago where we developed a Bio-fuelled (derived mainly from fish waste, etc) multiple CHP plant producing electricity & high and low grade heat coupled to absorption chillers and district heating to serve numerous (22) buildings across site. It passed feasibility, lots of supply and energy studies and spreadsheets galore, we were working with companies specialising in large scale Bio-fuel production and CHP providers.

From a cost/energy analysis it was definitely viable even then! Unfortunately the downturn in the economy prevented the project moving forward, which was a great shame.

I still believe Hydrogen may be the way forward. I like the idea of EBoats but for any decent size pleasure cruisers I think we are a very long way off at the moment, not something us older boaters are likely to ever see IMHO.
 
John100156 said:
I was involved as lead M&E Consultant to University of Essex 5+ years ago where we developed a Bio-fuelled (derived mainly from fish waste, etc) multiple CHP plant producing electricity & high and low grade heat coupled to absorption chillers and district heating to serve numerous (22) buildings across site. It passed feasibility, lots of supply and energy studies and spreadsheets galore, we were working with companies specialising in large scale Bio-fuel production and CHP providers.

From a cost/energy analysis it was definitely viable even then! Unfortunately the downturn in the economy prevented the project moving forward, which was a great shame.

I still believe Hydrogen may be the way forward. I like the idea of EBoats but for any decent size pleasure cruisers I think we are a very long way off at the moment, not something us older boaters are likely to ever see IMHO.
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JCB have put there eggs in the hydrogen basket
 
Two Clients (one a top UK University) I worked for for very many years before I retired last year had Hydrogen cars on test and were heavily involved in both new battery AND Hydrogen technologies, one site has its own Hydrogen filling station within its curtilage! Heavy investment in both at the moment, to include fuel cells of course. Surely we must go for the most abundant gas that we know of in the Universe?

We float on a massive reserve 😂 our scientists will work it out, our politicians will screw it up that is if we are not all blown up in the meantime-
 
For high speed craft batteries just don’t have the energy density needed.

Hydrogen is a real pain to handle with cryogenic temperatures to store as a liquid - not very compatible with infrequently used leisure boats.

Ammonia might be a better storage medium for a hydrogen powered craft as it can be a liquid at room temperature under pressure similar to natural gas.

For ease of handling and lowest infrastructure cost I think it is more likely that the marine sector will look to something like synthetic hydrocarbons or algal biodiesel than hydrogen in some form which necessitates costly new infrastructure in a niche sector.
 
BoatBouy said:
For high speed craft batteries just don’t have the energy density needed.

Hydrogen is a real pain to handle with cryogenic temperatures to store as a liquid - not very compatible with infrequently used leisure boats.

Ammonia might be a better storage medium for a hydrogen powered craft as it can be a liquid at room temperature under pressure similar to natural gas.

For ease of handling and lowest infrastructure cost I think it is more likely that the marine sector will look to something like synthetic hydrocarbons or algal biodiesel than hydrogen in some form which necessitates costly new infrastructure in a niche sector.
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Ammonia fuel cells might be a good answer for boats (eventually):-

The world’s first high-temperature ammonia-powered fuel cell for shipping

Current fossil fuel infrastructure is well adapted to transporting and dispensing ammonia.

Bio-diesel could be an intermediate solution. However it is not ideal to be growing crops to power our gin palaces instead of making food.

I ran my car on 100% bio-diesel back in 1995. It works.

Hydrogen might make sense for airplanes as it gives the biggest bang per kg of any fuel. And less weight means less fuel is needed.
 
I worked on a lot of Ammonia absorption chillers (Arkla Units) many years ago mixing Ammonia into a solution as a refrigerant and charging the units. You only needed a small whiff of it (which I got once working on the roof of the HQ of the HVCA & RUAC building in London) it really took my breath away, but cleared my nose.

We have piped-in H2 to numerous labs, even in the last few years, from large H2 manifolds. Pipe material are critical (316 SS) also detection and alarm to prevent build-up and explosion at high level.

I have never calculated the stored energy in H, we just designed the external storage pods, manifolds, sized pipework and end of line connections, so I don’t know what mass storage quantity might be required, would be interested in a comparison between energy stored in H compared to say Diesel fuel.

I finished a project in Hammersmith 2 years ago where we designed and sized a gas store to include a Hydrogen Generator, pipework distribution to multiple lab outlets complete with all the bells and whistles (detection and alarm) I have some pictures somewhere. This instead of storing multiple H cylinders adjacent to other gasses in a multiple gas store. The generator was fed with water, only very small capacity though, I have the numbers on file somewhere!
 
westernman said:
Your wish is granted.....

Energy Density of some Combustibles | The Geography of Transport Systems

Take note of the energy density per kg for a lithium battery right at the top of the diagram.
That will explain why battery powered gin palaces are not on the cards.
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Very interesting read thank you. As I thought, current research appears to be targeting safe storage and the old chestnut more efficient synthesis. The cynic in me thinks this may have been suppressed in the past by the petrochemical industry - No John, they wouldn’t do such a nasty thing 😂 Should be some interesting developments in the next 5-10 years I reckon.
 
Bouba said:
The fact is a boat has room for lots of batteries..and if stored correctly it will improve the boats characteristics.
But a large planning boat would be very difficult to electrify
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You need about 10x the weight for batteries to replace the diesel for the same energy.

So for your boat, assuming your diesel engine runs at about 35% efficiency and that an electric motor would be about 90% efficient, then for the same oopmf applied to the propeller for the same amount of time you would need about 3.1 tonnes of battery to replace ~ 800 kg of diesel tank and contents.

You would also be able to loose a few kg for the engine (electric motor will weigh a bit less), so net weight gain would be about 2 tonnes for your 7.5 tonnes dry/empty weight.

So about 10.8t vs 8.8t with full fuel and water.

Disadvantage is of course empty batteries are just as heavy as full batteries.

+20% weight is a fair bit....
But not impossible to deal with.

Of course, if we were looking at a real trawler of the same length, it would be more like double the displacement and then +10% overall difference is becoming sustainable.

Of course for lightweight planing boats the sums don't look so good.
 
westernman said:
You need about 10x the weight for batteries to replace the diesel for the same energy.

So for your boat, assuming your diesel engine runs at about 35% efficiency and that an electric motor would be about 90% efficient, then for the same oopmf applied to the propeller for the same amount of time you would need about 3.1 tonnes of battery to replace ~ 800 kg of diesel tank and contents.

You would also be able to loose a few kg for the engine (electric motor will weigh a bit less), so net weight gain would be about 2 tonnes for your 7.5 tonnes dry/empty weight.

So about 10.8t vs 8.8t with full fuel and water.

Disadvantage is of course empty batteries are just as heavy as full batteries.

+20% weight is a fair bit....
But not impossible to deal with.

Of course, if we were looking at a real trawler of the same length, it would be more like double the displacement and then +10% overall difference is becoming sustainable.

Of course for lightweight planing boats the sums don't look so good.
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Yes..a big trawler is a good candidate for electrification..a catamaran is better because the coach roof is better for solar panels…the figure you quoted of 10 times the weight…is that lithium or lead acid?
 
westernman said:
Ammonia fuel cells might be a good answer for boats (eventually):-

The world’s first high-temperature ammonia-powered fuel cell for shipping

Current fossil fuel infrastructure is well adapted to transporting and dispensing ammonia.

Bio-diesel could be an intermediate solution. However it is not ideal to be growing crops to power our gin palaces instead of making food.

I ran my car on 100% bio-diesel back in 1995. It works.

Hydrogen might make sense for airplanes as it gives the biggest bang per kg of any fuel. And less weight means less fuel is needed.
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That is indeed the problem with conventional biofuels, using arable land that is needed for food production. I understand that algal biofuels can be produced in areas that are unsuitable for agriculture, but these are captial intensive and have high costs.

I think the takeaway is that there is no one solution to replace current fossil fuel usage. Batteries, liquid hydrogen, ammonia and biofuel all have strengths and weaknesses in terms of energy density by weight and volume as well as different costs and energy conversion efficiencies. That makes the trade offs favour one or other in different applications.
 
westernman said:
You need about 10x the weight for batteries to replace the diesel for the same energy.

So for your boat, assuming your diesel engine runs at about 35% efficiency and that an electric motor would be about 90% efficient, then for the same oopmf applied to the propeller for the same amount of time you would need about 3.1 tonnes of battery to replace ~ 800 kg of diesel tank and contents.

You would also be able to loose a few kg for the engine (electric motor will weigh a bit less), so net weight gain would be about 2 tonnes for your 7.5 tonnes dry/empty weight.

So about 10.8t vs 8.8t with full fuel and water.

Disadvantage is of course empty batteries are just as heavy as full batteries.

+20% weight is a fair bit....
But not impossible to deal with.

Of course, if we were looking at a real trawler of the same length, it would be more like double the displacement and then +10% overall difference is becoming sustainable.

Of course for lightweight planing boats the sums don't look so good.
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Actually it's closer to 100 times the weight of diesel. And i'm saying this as the owner of an electrically propelled boat.
It's still not an insurmountable problem in a low speed displacement boat.
 
Alan S said:
Actually it's closer to 100 times the weight of diesel. And i'm saying this as the owner of an electrically propelled boat.
It's still not an insurmountable problem in a low speed displacement boat.
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Ooops! I got a decimal point wrong.

Make that 30t of battery for Bouba's boat.
That will make a difference to the 7.5t light displacement!
 
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