EU Travel post Brexit

[greeny]

Read the original statements again carefully. Then tell me what it means, not what you would like it to mean. The two statements contradict each other.
But this is what I have come to expect from both the government and the other advisory bodies and so called experts. If someone is offering guidance on the law or potential law, then they should be clear and concise, not leave it open to interpretation of the readers.
I wonder if these people ever read what they've written, back to themselves and put themselves in the position of the recipient.

 

[Sea Devil]

I am resident in Spain with an NIE which after Dec 31st I need to change for a TIE which I understand is a resident card for non EU nationals.

I am entitled to remain in Spain 365 but I have a 2nd home in France where my boat is based.... So in Spring I drive to northern France and nobody knows because there are no border controls on the Spanish/French frontier.... Then i jump in my boat and sail to the UK - still no border control (although as a British flagged vessel I could be required to get clearance before departure???) Sail around UK for a bit and then return to my home French port and of course have to get clearance in and passport stamped or introduced to the system... now I am on 90 days or possibly 89 if I include my day in France to depart for UK in boat...
At the end of the summer I get in my car and drive back to Spain and there are still no checks or indeed customs post on the French/Spanish border. So apparently I never leave France where I am required to follow the 90/180 rule and enter Spain where I have 365 day right.
Problem I suspect is that the French will not allow me in again because apparently I have overstayed my 90 days according to the system! And that's bad because when I fly to the USA from Malaga I transit in Paris and it apparently counts 1 day of my 90

I am certain that I am not the only Brit in Europe in this situation so I am certain that the EU will find a way - bet we end up with 180 days ,,,

 

[Graham376]

See #1. According to Europe Direct, passports should not be stamped when transiting to country of residence, which you will be doing when arriving in France from UK to travel back to Spain. Maybe producing residence card along with passport will avoid stamping? Having said that, no doubt every State will interpret the rules to suit themselves, as they do now.

 

[nortada]

I am resident in Spain with an NIE which after Dec 31st I need to change for a TIE which I understand is a resident card for non EU nationals.

I am entitled to remain in Spain 365 but I have a 2nd home in France where my boat is based.... So in Spring I drive to northern France and nobody knows because there are no border controls on the Spanish/French frontier.... Then i jump in my boat and sail to the UK - still no border control (although as a British flagged vessel I could be required to get clearance before departure???) Sail around UK for a bit and then return to my home French port and of course have to get clearance in and passport stamped or introduced to the system... now I am on 90 days or possibly 89 if I include my day in France to depart for UK in boat...
At the end of the summer I get in my car and drive back to Spain and there are still no checks or indeed customs post on the French/Spanish border. So apparently I never leave France where I am required to follow the 90/180 rule and enter Spain where I have 365 day right.
Problem I suspect is that the French will not allow me in again because apparently I have overstayed my 90 days according to the system! And that's bad because when I fly to the USA from Malaga I transit in Paris and it apparently counts 1 day of my 90

I am certain that I am not the only Brit in Europe in this situation so I am certain that the EU will find a way - bet we end up with 180 days ,,,

As you say you will not be the only Brit in this situation. Not so sure bending the 90/180 Schengen rule will be an option.

I anticipate you will have to demonstrate your arrival back in Spain from France at the end of the summer. Possibly Spanish fuel receipts, bank transactions or any other documentation (parking/speeding fine ?) that proves you are indeed in Spain.

Our situation is simpler, we just fly between the UK and Portugal.

It will be interesting to hear how you get on.

 

[Sea Devil]

See #1. According to Europe Direct, passports should not be stamped when transiting to country of residence, which you will be doing when arriving in France from UK to travel back to Spain. Maybe producing residence card along with passport will avoid stamping? Having said that, no doubt every State will interpret the rules to suit themselves, as they do now.

I suspect that when our passports are scanned the entry/exit date and time is automatically recorded. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Would be good if I am wrong!

 

[nortada]

I suspect that when our passports are scanned the entry/exit date and time is automatically recorded. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Would be good if I am wrong!

Probably but it depends where the information is recorded and who has access to it.

 

[Stork_III]

Probably but it depends where the information is recorded and who has access to it.

EU Schengen central database.

 

[Ningaloo]

Generally a good description of the rules and I'm sure they mean well but they can confuse people with their contradictions.
First statement says, quote "After your 90-days in the Schengen zone have finished, you have to leave, and you cannot return until 90 days after that. Basically 3 months on, 3 months off. " OK I've got that - simple.
Then a few lines further down:- Quote : "but if you count back to a 180 day period, you can only be in the Schengen Zone for a total of 90 of those days. " - this means that if you're in Schengen for 90 days and leave for example for 14 days, you are then entitled to come back for 14 days to "top back up" to the 90 days limit. OK I understand that too.
But which one is the rule?

How do you calculate that you can "top up" after 14 days outside the EU? Your 90 days still falls within the previous 180. In your example cannot return for 90-14=76 days

This isn't new. It's simply that no other country geographically so close has been stupid enough to opt out of both Schengen AND the EU!

 

[Stork_III]

I may be wrong but you should be able to apply for an extension of the 90 days as you say other countries will do for you.
Canadian friend of mine who was here in Portugal for 90 days, applied for and got an extension of a further 90 days to make the total stay 180 days.
I'm afraid I don't know the details but she did have to go up to Lisbon about it but it she seemed to get it without too much trouble. I'm not in touch with her anymore or I would ask for you.
The point I am making about the article referenced is that it quotes 2 completely different interpretations of the same 90 day rule.

First statement says, quote "After your 90-days in the Schengen zone have finished, you have to leave, and you cannot return until 90 days after that. Basically 3 months on, 3 months off. "
OK I've got that - simple. Or I thought i had!
But then a few lines further down:- Quote : "but if you count back to a 180 day period, you can only be in the Schengen Zone for a total of 90 of those days. " - this means that if you're in Schengen for 90 days and leave for example for 14 days, you are then entitled to come back for 14 days to "top back up" to the 90 days limit.
OK I understand that too.
But which one is the real rule? Two different interpretations in one article. What chance do we have of understanding it.
Does anyone know what the correct answer is.

The first is correct. The second is wrong, any new days entitlement only appears if some of your old 90 days drop off the front of the 180 sliding time limit. If your 90 days is a single block, you must leave for 90 days before any new days appear. But if say you have 30 days and 90 days later you re-enter for 60 days, ie 90 days used in 180, leave for 30 days and your original 30 days has dropped out of the 180 slot and you can re-enter for 30 days.

 

[Sea Devil]

How do you calculate that you can "top up" after 14 days outside the EU? Your 90 days still falls within the previous 180. In your example cannot return for 90-14=76 days

This isn't new. It's simply that no other country geographically so close has been stupid enough to opt out of both Schengen AND the EU!

There are apps on the market for calculating the 90/180 rule.. I have one downloaded for next year!

 

[greeny]

The first is correct. The second is wrong, any new days entitlement only appears if some of your old 90 days drop off the front of the 180 sliding time limit. If your 90 days is a single block, you must leave for 90 days before any new days appear. But if say you have 30 days and 90 days later you re-enter for 60 days, ie 90 days used in 180, leave for 30 days and your original 30 days has dropped out of the 180 slot and you can re-enter for 30 days.

You're confusing me even more. By your interpretation it means the first is wrong and the second correct. Not the other way round as you say.

 

[Ningaloo]

What worries me is that UK sailors are just starting to realise the freedoms they have given up.

The vote was 4 years ago. Surely everyone realised that freedom of movement would be lost!

As a summer live-aboard with my boat based in the EU since 2004 I still regard this as a serious theft of my existing rights.

 

[Stork_III]

You're confusing me even more. By your interpretation it means the first is wrong and the second correct. Not the other way round as you say.

The first is correct if your days are in one block of 90days. The second example I gave is when not all in one block.

Visulise it as your days in what ever combination static, and the 180 day sliding along as a block. As the 180 slides passed your 90 days, any that emerge from the front of the 180 block can then be reused.

 

[greeny]

That's what I said in the first place with my 14 day example. I understand the rolling 180 days and any 90 days in it. But it doesn't agree with the other statement they make about having left after 90 days, you cannot return for another 90 days. That is clearly not true given the rolling 180 day rule.
Not really bothered either way as to which one is which to be honest. I don't need to know, given my residential position.
I made the post to show how guidance on the internet can be confusing, contradictory and often incorrect and how individuals interpretation of the information can differ substantially.

 

[Stork_III]

The first example is correct if your 90 days is in a single continuous block. the 14 day example is correct if you have a 14 day visit at the front of your 180 day period when your 90 day total is reached. It all depends on the distribution of your visit days within a 180 day period.

eg visit for 14 days, leave 14 days, repeat ad infinitum.

 

[Cloud 5]

It looks like an Irish passport is valuable asset

 

[GHA]

It looks like an Irish passport is valuable asset

Or even better, one of each, where's that awfully smug smilie ?

 

[Cloud 5]

Or even better, one of each, where's that awfully smug smilie ?

Or winter in Canaries ( outside EU )

 

[GHA]

Or winter in Canaries ( outside EU )

Canaries are inside the EU and schengen, just some financial differences so no luck going for more than 90 days there.....

 

[syvictoria]

Or winter in Canaries ( outside EU )

I'm not sure that I understand how you posted that, given that your location is 'Spain'!!!!! ?????