Engine cooling thermostat, how does it work

Me again breaking up the party
I really struggle to understand why this seems to give you some sort of satisfaction. Regardless, you must try harder! :D

There are several points in your reasoning that I'm not sure to have understood, but honestly, what you are saying about the water flow while flushing is beyond a joke. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't think about it before writing, because I'm sure you know better, if you try for a moment to understand, before criticizing.

LS already said it all 10 years ago, really: "Leave the seacock open and IF the water flow from the dock is greater than the needs of the engine at an idle (usually is if a good valve/water flow/pressure is at the dock, you have a good hose and 5/8" or bigger plumbing all the way to the "T" in your system,) the engine will only have fresh water in it after a couple of minutes of idling".
Now, it doesn't matter how many Nobel prizes for physics you might have been awarded.
When someone like LS says that on a topic like this, the only sensible thing to do is take note - which is what I did.

But let's assume that you are unaware of who the man is, and you rate his comment as if made by any Sunday boater.
What do we have here?

Firstly, a fresh water hose whose capacity in L/min is enough to feed the engine raw water pump running at idle.
Leaving aside what LS said, this is proved by the fact that jfm uses a normal hose, connected through a smallish (albeit high quality steel, but that's irrelevant in this context) quick coupling connector. And that is enough to supply water to a Cat C32, no less!
My supply chain, so to speak, actually has a higher capacity, because on top of using 3/4" valves and 19mm hoses, my coupling connectors are larger (2.4 times the capacity vs. the standard size).
So, it's no surprise that also in my boat the water supply is more than adequate for my much smaller engines, and I can clearly see that if I flush the engines with the seacock closed.

Secondly, there are different pressures at work.
The hydrostatic pressure of sea water, let's say one meter under the surface, even if the strainer is not that deep, is 0.1 bar.
I mean, ONE TENTH of bar, not a typo. Just look at the manual of your diving course if you don't trust me.
Otoh, the pressure of the dock water supply can be different in any marina, and often it also changes over time, depending on the grid demand, how many folks are washing their boats, etc.
In my marina, most of the times I have a pressure of 2+ bar, with peaks of 4 or even 5 (good thing that I have a pressure limiter on the dockside direct connection!).

Therefore, when the hose is attached to the strainer lid (or to the dedicated pipe in jfm setup, which makes absolutely no difference in this respect) leaving the seacock open, what happens is that you have two concurrent water supplies, salt and fresh.
The fact that the first comes from a 3" passage and the latter from a 3/4" hose is irrelevant, because with the engine at idle BOTH these supplies have enough capacity to supply water in excess of the impeller demand.
As a consequence, the only difference is the pressure of the respective supplies.
And I hope you'll agree that it doesn't take a lot of science to know who wins, between 2+ bar and 0.1 bar...!?!
 
@ porto, #57, that is the worst bit of analysis you've written for a long time.
I was writing my previous post while you posted yours, but goes without saying that I couldn't agree more.

Ref. your last question, I guess you are referring to the V12s from Cat, MTU and MAN.
If so, I can't give you a decent answer because I never studied them as much as I did with smaller engines.
But I have a funny feeling that it wouldn't take much study, before restricting the choice to just two of those contenders... :rolleyes:
 
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@ #61, all correct and you had more patience than me because you typed it all. Plus the hosepipe with a jet and a spray filling the bucket at same litres per minute- noooo! The jet and other patterns are created by throttling the flow, which obviously affects litres/minute so the bucket will not fill at same rate (unless throttles are multiplied obvs).

I agree with you on v12s but let’s not go there. The thing to understand, which you do, is that there is no consistency with a brand. It’s nonsense to say cat is better than MAN or vv. The cat c32 and c15 are quite nice but the c12 isn’t so nice, for example.
 
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Yes mine are set up for back-flushing exactly as was discussed in your old thread where LS commented. In other words, the freshwater hosepipe injection is on the engine side of the strainer. TBH, I don't see the need to back flush in the med but they are set up for it if I want.

In a pedantic way I don't love back flushing because it relies on the water pump to block the passage of the hosepipe water. If any water passes the pump impeller it gets to the exhaust elbow injection, and then you rely on the detailed design of the elbow to prevent water draining back to the engine (because, when back-flushing, the engine can't be running). That makes me a bit uncomfortable so I don't back flush in this way. I may be over worrying this but there you go.

Your method of drilling the polycarbonate lid is good imho - I think we discussed on another thread. It doesn't back flush but that really doesn't matter.

Thanks for the info re Profi. Mine are as you say the "standard" garden sizes, so smaller than Profi, but they provide enough flow for Cat c32 at idle, even if borderline. I use a soft hosepipe and it doesn't compress as the pumps suck. I have two idle speeds - 650 normal and switchable 550 slow idle - and I flush at 550.

On the next boat I will use Profi but imho the fittings are better if they are all metal as per my picture because I don't trust plastic to retain its properties (strength, non brittleness, etc) after spending a lot of time at (say) 60 degrees ambient temperature. Obviously the Gardena stuff would be on the dry side of the valve so it's no big deal if they snap off, so I'm over thinking this :D The profi might let me flush 2 engines simultaneously!


It is correct as stated on *49, as the wax materials used also expand and contract in the liquid state to open and close the thermostat within a specified range.
 
Maths does not stack up .
It’s the total volume of flow that’s massively out with tiny pipes .
Even with 1- to what ever dock pressure bar ,it’s can’t keep up with 3 inch or 2-3/4 ( mine too btw ) which is 1m below ,so has a bit of head so speak .

That why dock flushing good as it’s is ends at a certain size as OEM .

Do the maths .

I’ve not nothing personal but in this MapisM, just explaining why you don’t see it In bigger than OB , jet skis etc .
You can’t feed bigger stuff .



@ JFM re large motor choice agree totally with your assessment.
There’s no one stand alone above a certain power each has equal + and - .
In you in the lap of the gods with MTU , CAT and MAN in theses areas .
This is not about that it’s about flushing and was about thermostats .

Back to sudden open shut stats
Mines got 3 in a line that I guess open at diff temps so one opens first and 1/3 rd is allowed to be diverted , then the 2nd and so on as it warms up until all 3 .Thats how they graduate the flow .

KAD Volvos have two ( don’t ask how I found out :) ) .
Obviously a Morris thou has one .
 
I have to admit that I'm no physicist or mathematician, but surely the 3" pipe is there to 'over-cater' for the demands of the impeller at maximum power, the Bodge System just needs to supply a fraction of that demand at tick-over, and the water volume from the dock , at a greater pressure than the surrounding sea easily meets that demand. I only need to look at the water exiting from my exhaust at tick over to see that the volume exiting is less than available from the dock hosepipe.
 
Maths does not stack up
What math? I didn't do any, and neither I want to.
The proper math of fluid dynamics is not trivial btw, and involves also fluid density, pipes resistance and length, temperature... You name it.
I guess you can find some online flow calculators, if that's your thing.

My observations were completely empirical, so it ain't a matter of math, it's a matter of trust.
- LS suggested that "a good hose and 5/8" or bigger plumbing" is enough to feed any engine at idle speed.
- jfm said "I use a soft hosepipe and it doesn't compress as the pumps suck".
- I am positive that my hose keeps the strainer filled to the brim, both with the seacock open and closed.
So, either you think that LS, jfm and myself are all liars, or you'd better give your efforts to "break up the party" a rest, accepting that the fresh water volume that a normal dock hose delivers is more than enough.

Mind, I understand that this is a bit counterintuitive, but it's a fact.
I trust you are not one of those folks who think that the engine raw water pump, when used as an emergency bilge pump, is akin to using a full fledged 800hp (or whatever) pump, as is actually the case with waterjet propulsion..... :rolleyes:

That aside, ref. why you don't find any OEM flushing systems in big diesel engines, well, I don't know is my short answer.
If I should guess, I can envisage three different categories of reasons: cynic, practical, and legal. In no particular order:
The first is that for engine builders, the sale of parts is a highly profitable business.
The second is that big marine diesels are built to run - much, much more (and more regularly) than they typically do in pleasure boats. And regular usage defeats the purpose of fresh water flush, obviously.
The latter has to see with the fact that by fiddling with valves, both on the raw water and fresh water pipes, the operator must pay attention to avoid mistakes, which could potentially damage an engine and/or burn out its exhaust, by starving the cooling system. Not something an engine builder is willing to be accused of, I suppose.

Regardless, whatever the builders' reasoning, if there is one reason that does NOT exist by any stretch of imagination, it's the technical difficulty to make a built-in BodgeFlowTM , neither standard nor gold version. :D
 
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I have been winterising or flushing my engines for nearly 20 years. I have done this with Ford Mermaids, Volvo 63s, and currently KAD 300s.
Pull off the pipe from the seawater filter or the seawater pump - which ever is easier. Now fit a length of suitably sized plastic pipe to the sea water pump/filter and put the other end into a 25 L plastic container.
(I use a container as I used to add anti freeze in the UK)

Fill the plastic container to about 3/4 full and with the hosepipe still on full flow, start the engine. The engine is now sucking water from the container.
The water level in the container is pretty much maintained - which means that the volume of water being sucked up by the engine is equal to the volume of water coming out of the hose pipe.

If I turn off the hosepipe it takes about 30 - 40 seconds to run the container nearly to empty, plenty long enough to stroll back to the ignition switches and stop the engine.
 
I have been winterising or flushing my engines for nearly 20 years. I have done this with Ford Mermaids, Volvo 63s, and currently KAD 300s.
Pull off the pipe from the seawater filter or the seawater pump - which ever is easier. Now fit a length of suitably sized plastic pipe to the sea water pump/filter and put the other end into a 25 L plastic container.
(I use a container as I used to add anti freeze in the UK)

Fill the plastic container to about 3/4 full and with the hosepipe still on full flow, start the engine. The engine is now sucking water from the container.
The water level in the container is pretty much maintained - which means that the volume of water being sucked up by the engine is equal to the volume of water coming out of the hose pipe.

If I turn off the hosepipe it takes about 30 - 40 seconds to run the container nearly to empty, plenty long enough to stroll back to the ignition switches and stop the engine.

Yup 3.7 L ( and 6.3 latter ) just make it . There will be a grey cut off area.
But 15 and 32 L . Go figure .
 
Yup 3.7 L ( and 6.3 latter ) just make it . There will be a grey cut off area.
But 15 and 32 L . Go figure .

@Porto: I connect a hosepipe from the dock or from the boat's freshwater tanks. Both about 2 bar very approximately. Main 4inch engine room sea-cocks are shut, so each big engine raw water pump can only suck from the hosepipe - no other water available. At 550rpm idle the (deliberately thin/soft) hosepipe does not compress. If I squeeze the hosepipe with finger/thumb to restrict the fresh water flow, the hosepipe is suddenly squeezed flat downstream of where I am squeezing it, because of the suction of the engine pump. This proves that the (soft yellow) hosepipe does squeeze flat if the water flow is too little - a useful indicator imho. But as i say, in normal operation of BodgeFlowTM, the hosepipe does not get sucked flat and the engines idle away perfectly happy. Go figure.

By the way c32 takes about 8 litres/hour at idle. Not a lot of heat to deal with, and easily absorbed by the inertia in a big system that can handles 400 litres/hour worth of heat generalisation in 45 deg seawater at full chat. Really the dock water only needs to be enough to lubricate the pump impellers - a bit of fresh water starvation wouldn't even matter. But the finger/thumb hosepipe squeeze test proves there is enough water from the hosepipe to run BodgeFlowTM 24/7 if you wanted to. Go figure.
 
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I have been winterising or flushing my engines for nearly 20 years. I have done this with Ford Mermaids, Volvo 63s, and currently KAD 300s.
Pull off the pipe from the seawater filter or the seawater pump - which ever is easier. Now fit a length of suitably sized plastic pipe to the sea water pump/filter and put the other end into a 25 L plastic container.
(I use a container as I used to add anti freeze in the UK)

Fill the plastic container to about 3/4 full and with the hosepipe still on full flow, start the engine. The engine is now sucking water from the container.
The water level in the container is pretty much maintained - which means that the volume of water being sucked up by the engine is equal to the volume of water coming out of the hose pipe.

If I turn off the hosepipe it takes about 30 - 40 seconds to run the container nearly to empty, plenty long enough to stroll back to the ignition switches and stop the engine.
Interesting stuff kashurt. I have been thinking about the 25 litre plastic jerry can idea and have already made one with a Gardena style hosepipe nipple/tap. I'm not bothered about antifreeze (in Med) but have been thinking of putting bleach in the jerry can water. Even a tiny concentration of bleach kills/inhibits algae etc (inside the engine). I haven't actually done it yet due to uncertainty about whether bleach (very dilute) would harm gaskets and seals, etc. I think I tried to google that question but didn't get very far! Anyway, I like your 25litre tank idea:encouragement:.
 
surely the 3" pipe is there to 'over-cater' for the demands of the impeller at maximum power....
Indeed it is, and also to "over cater" for when the seawater is 35 deg C or whatever in scorching summers/Dubai boaters. My dock hosepipe water is more like 20 degC in summer.
 
Blimey J, global warming must be real bad in SoF! :D
Haha! No, I meant that boats that generally sell in warm climes have engine cooling systems specced for very hot seawater - the same "stock boats" that we use in 28deg Med water also sell unmodded in Dubai, etc.
 
I like your 25litre tank idea
Agreed.
That's in fact a rather common solution wherever the boat is fully winterized (like in N Adriatic).
Typically, they add antifreeze because temperatures can go way below zero in wintertime, but afaik that is also a corrosion inhibitor and (I would guess) bad for algae too - even if the total lack of light is probably enough to block their growth anywhere inside the circuit, I would think.
 
Agreed.
That's in fact a rather common solution wherever the boat is fully winterized (like in N Adriatic).
Typically, they add antifreeze because temperatures can go way below zero in wintertime, but afaik that is also a corrosion inhibitor and (I would guess) bad for algae too - even if the total lack of light is probably enough to block their growth anywhere inside the circuit, I would think.
Thanks. Yep - best to find a proper made0for0the-job corrosion inhibitor/antifreeze combo, and use that. I'll give it a go. Also yes of course re darkness - I forgot about that (doh)

By the way, I never antifoul my Lumishores and while I can get barnacles on the metal rim I never get barnacles on the glass in front of the LEDs - so long as I use them at least every couple of weeks. Super bright light is a perfect antifoul, including for barnacles. So maybe I'll install Lumishores inside my raw water system and CAC. BodgeFlowGoldLumiTM :D

Or perhaps UV-C leds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradiation
 
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Super bright light is a perfect antifoul, including for barnacles.
Memo to self:
ask jfm to shut those lights off, if and when I should swim anywhere near them.
I'm not sure that my bones are much more resistant than barnacles... :rolleyes: :p
 
@Porto: I connect a hosepipe from the dock or from the boat's freshwater tanks. Both about 2 bar very approximately. Main 4inch engine room sea-cocks are shut, so each big engine raw water pump can only suck from the hosepipe - no other water available. At 550rpm idle the (deliberately thin/soft) hosepipe does not compress. If I squeeze the hosepipe with finger/thumb to restrict the fresh water flow, the hosepipe is suddenly squeezed flat downstream of where I am squeezing it, because of the suction of the engine pump. This proves that the (soft yellow) hosepipe does squeeze flat if the water flow is too little - a useful indicator imho. But as i say, in normal operation of BodgeFlowTM, the hosepipe does not get sucked flat and the engines idle away perfectly happy. Go figure.

By the way c32 takes about 8 litres/hour at idle. Not a lot of heat to deal with, and easily absorbed by the inertia in a big system that can handles 400 litres/hour worth of heat generalisation in 45 deg seawater at full chat. Really the dock water only needs to be enough to lubricate the pump impellers - a bit of fresh water starvation wouldn't even matter. But the finger/thumb hosepipe squeeze test proves there is enough water from the hosepipe to run BodgeFlowTM 24/7 if you wanted to. Go figure.

Shows enough dock pressure to get to the restricted part at the nipple that's all .
Does not show the vol that enventually supposed to flow through 3 inch pipes . Yes all you are doing is lubing ( hopefully) the impeller.
8 L / hour @ tick over feels low .

Hypochlorite- bleach is an electrolyte btw like salt.
 
8 L / hour @ tick over feels low
I despair. You can't make this stuff up!
It's completely beyond obvious that jfm was talking of fuel, not sea water.

I'll refrain from commenting on the volume "supposed to flow through 3 inch pipes", as per my post #70.
 
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