eNavigation

[SaltyC]

You’ve twice been in electrical storms bad enough to knock out equipment and apparently make satellites unavailable but close enough to land to use paper navigation? At night?
Thankfully none of the skippers on my boat are that bad.

So your Skippers do not go out at night or far enough to be caught by electrical storms?
Loss of Power / failure of equipment happens. The video card in the plotter dies, you lose all power from Lands End to Milford Haven. No land, no charts, no idea!
Knowledge and availability of the Paper you deride could save your life.

 

[SaltyC]

E

id say quite the opposite. Surely if there is a standard route that IS the plan. The rules only require a suitable plan not a particular style / content (not for it to be recorded). The courts will decide afterwards if it was good enough! Do you not make a plan before you head to sea?

most requirements are made after some cock up / disaster. If solas requires a plan it’s probably because people who were making it up as they went along came a cropper. If the rules expect commercial skippers to have actual charts, it’s probably because someone didn’t and had an avoidable accident.

So you have done your passage plan from Lymington to Yarmouth.
Simples! You have noted tide / tidal streams and weather forecast no problem.
You are goibg across channel but don't have a forecast????

 

[SaltyC]

Yes paper is still available right now, but it’s rapidly disappearing and in the UK was almost withdrawn. The only reason it wasn’t in the end was these very rules to carry paper. I was obviously talking about when it is withdrawn over the next few years.

When a failure can be covered for everyone. GPS gone down? You can use plotter as a paper chart, all electrics fail ????????
Ships don't need paper charts, they have duplicate systems and duplicate means of powering them and can use electronic plotting.
We, read the discaimers on the plotter have neither!

 

[lustyd]

So your Skippers do not go out at night or far enough to be caught by electrical storms?

Forecasts are a thing. If close enough to land to use traditional navigation techniques then you shouldn't be out there, if not then what's the difference?

Loss of Power / failure of equipment happens. The video card in the plotter dies, you lose all power from Lands End to Milford Haven. No land, no charts, no idea!

Such a tired argument, it's 2026.

Knowledge and availability of the Paper you deride could save your life.

I have the knowledge for both paper and electronic. I also have numerous backups. How many backups do you have for your paper? How many copies do you keep of your paper log which could be rendered useless by a cup of coffee?

 

[SaltyC]

SO you ignore forecasts? They are irrelevant to you. You have no record as no log book?

Aah, no one suffers power failure - think many may contradict. Systems are not Lustyd proof, the unplanned happens.

I have many charts of the same area, difderent scales.

Why would any sane person have a cup of coffee on a chart table, the same one who has it above a switch board?

Your back ups ALL depend on external sources, mine are onboard.

 

[lustyd]

When a failure can be covered for everyone. GPS gone down? You can use plotter as a paper chart, all electrics fail ????????
Ships don't need paper charts, they have duplicate systems and duplicate means of powering them and can use electronic plotting.
We, read the discaimers on the plotter have neither!

Can't even work out what you're trying to say, other than you don't really understand the problem.

Electronics can fail, yes. I have 2 plotters, 2 handheld GPS, 3 phones, 2 laptops and an iPad all of which can get me home. I'd expect any sensible skipper to have at least two options, one being their phone.

Power can fail, but I have two battery banks (one lead, one lithium), AA batteries, rechargeable batteries in the various devices.

Power can deplete - I have solar, engine, generator.

If all else fails, I can't imagine being so lost at sea that I couldn't find my way to safety. I'll never wake up mid-Pacific ocean with no idea how I got there or where I've been. Do you pay so little attention that you'd have no clue which way to turn? In the channel, go north/south and you'll hit a country. Mid ocean, go east/west and you'll hit a continent. Sail along the coast and you'll find civilisation and there will be buoys, boats, people. The vast majority of boats are within a few hours of their home port and know the way home blindfolded, especially small commercial boats.

This isn't really a debate on whether electronic navigation is viable, it obviously is and has decades of track record as such. Anyone arguing otherwise is either being obtuse, overly paranoid, or doesn't have experience.

 

[lustyd]

SO you ignore forecasts? They are irrelevant to you. You have no record as no log book?

No, I don't go out if there's a forecast for a storm sufficient to destroy all of my equipment. Do you?
Yes, I have a log book, I just updated it to July. It's nice to go back and see what we did. Our actual log is electronic and includes more detail than your paper log.

Aah, no one suffers power failure - think many may contradict. Systems are not Lustyd proof, the unplanned happens.

What's your point? Failures happen on boats. Good skippers deal with them and prepare for them. If you think paper somehow means you're exempt from that then you're an idiot.

I have many charts of the same area, difderent scales.

Congratulations. I had a 2" stack of charts costing >£300 just to get to Scotland this year and I used them three times, never at sea.

Why would any sane person have a cup of coffee on a chart table, the same one who has it above a switch board?

Accidents happen, wasn't that YOUR point?

Your back ups ALL depend on external sources, mine are onboard.

None of my backups rely on external sources, where did you get that from?

 

[SaltyC]

Can't even work out what you're trying to say, other than you don't really understand the problem.

Electronics can fail, yes. I have 2 plotters, 2 handheld GPS, 3 phones, 2 laptops and an iPad all of which can get me home. I'd expect any sensible skipper to have at least two options, one being their phone.

Power can fail, but I have two battery banks (one lead, one lithium), AA batteries, rechargeable batteries in the various devices.

Power can deplete - I have solar, engine, generator.

If all else fails, I can't imagine being so lost at sea that I couldn't find my way to safety. I'll never wake up mid-Pacific ocean with no idea how I got there or where I've been. Do you pay so little attention that you'd have no clue which way to turn? In the channel, go north/south and you'll hit a country. Mid ocean, go east/west and you'll hit a continent. Sail along the coast and you'll find civilisation and there will be buoys, boats, people. The vast majority of boats are within a few hours of their home port and know the way home blindfolded, especially small commercial boats.

This isn't really a debate on whether electronic navigation is viable, it obviously is and has decades of track record as such. Anyone arguing otherwise is either being obtuse, overly paranoid, or doesn't have experience.

You are obviously a slave to technology and electronics not knowledge and understanding.

Yes you can go and find land (or rocks, so not necessarily safety)! Without GPS your systems are ALL redundant! But after all in your electronic world that cannot happen.

Who doesn't understand the oroblem?

 

[lustyd]

You are obviously a slave to technology and electronics not knowledge and understanding.

Yes you can go and find land (or rocks, so not necessarily safety)! Without GPS your systems are ALL redundant! But after all in your electronic world that cannot happen.

Who doesn't understand the oroblem?

You're a slave to paper, what's your point? We're all free to choose, except we're not because the regs don't recognise the systems people actually use day to day.

I'm not trying to take your precious paper away, why are you trying to suggest I shouldn't be able to use electronics?

 

[ylop]

So you have done your passage plan from Lymington to Yarmouth.
Simples! You have noted tide / tidal streams and weather forecast no problem.
You are goibg across channel but don't have a forecast????

I’m not sure what the question was?

 

[ylop]

Such a tired argument, it's 2026.

20 yrs ago I used to think GPS failure was about my hardware dying which I could mitigate with spares - as you rightly say “everyone” has a smartphone (but you scoffed when I mentioned apps earlier today). But in 2026 interference by bad actors seems far more possible than it did when I bought my first GPS.

I also have numerous backups.

But all of them rely on GPS? Or do you have Tom Cunliffe’s weird Angel Nav?

I think though for regulated vessels defining what backups/independence is required is probably likely to be a key part of whatever future standard is adopted.

How many copies do you keep of your paper log which could be rendered useless by a cup of coffee?

Surely a cup of coffee doesn’t render a log unreadable? Even if it did unless your instruments have failed you just make a new log entry on a dry piece of paper and you are ready for real crisis again!

By the way I mostly agree that it’s time we reflected/moved to a digital first approach - it’s just you seem to be opposed to the RYA commenting on the UKHO trying to agree standards with the IMO. Rarely in life is it better for one country to have its own unique set of rules / standards - suppliers will charge through the nose for something that services (or worse is certified to) a very local standard.

 

[geem]

If that’s true, one day you will come unstuck (or perhaps actually stuck). The plan can be to “go out there sailing about in this area and then come back” but it’s still a plan - you identify the risks and hazards - if you don’t then one day they’ll find you. The reason it’s a requirement is because some people do/did go to sea without engaging their brain at all.

you are confused what a passage plan is; it’s not the same thing as a pilotage plan (although it could contain one).

Are you assuming that the skipper doesn't look at his chartplotter?

 

[geem]

So your Skippers do not go out at night or far enough to be caught by electrical storms?
Loss of Power / failure of equipment happens. The video card in the plotter dies, you lose all power from Lands End to Milford Haven. No land, no charts, no idea!
Knowledge and availability of the Paper you deride could save your life.

How? Doy you not carry a back up? We run 3 different chartplotting systems onboard. Raymarine plotter, open CPN on the ships computer, two tablets running Navionics.
On first site of lighting, at least 2 chartplotters ( tablets) get deposited in our Faraday cage ( AKA the oven). We also add a handheld GPS and EPIRB.
Skippers are responsible for the vessel and all those onboard. Paper can back up electronics. Electronics can back up electronics. What backs up paper? Electronics?
Regardless of what rules and regs change, it won't change the skippers responsibility to ensure the safety of the crew and the vessel. Carry a suitable back up

 

[ylop]

Are you assuming that the skipper doesn't look at his chartplotter?

No the expectation for a passage plan is it’s not just about the chart - it’s about considering everything that applies to that voyage (weather, tides, hazards etc) - but if you are simply relying on the chart plotter you possibly aren’t looking where you are going or situationally aware - a passage plan, in its broadest of terms would mean you knew when you needed of be focussed on the plotter (because there’s a shallow bit, rock, channel, tss, etc) and when you can afford to be less focussed on the screen; or indeed where the plotter isn’t the best way to now where to go and the channel markers or aiming between the middle of the concrete breakwaters is a more immediate feedback loop! Some people here have probably sailed the same waters every weekend for 40 yrs and don’t believe they make a passage plan - but they probably do.