Sandy
Well-known member
I'd still be concern about the weight then, but in a different way
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Efoy Fuel Cells
- Thread starter Sandy
- Start date
Mistroma
Well-known member
Interesting, more information would be useful. e.g. Type of use (living on boat or just keeping batteries topped up on mooring etc.). How did cost compare with solar when you examined that option?
EFOY wouldn't be viable for me due to amount of energy needed, abundance of sunshine. Hydro doesn't work either as I'm not always on the move but would generate plenty on an Atlantic crossing. However, I will eventually return to UK and might re-evaluate EFOY. Last time I checked solar panels were hugely more cost effective, even in Scottish waters. I didn't think much had changed with EFOY technology in last 5 years.
ninjod
Member
My use case is racing, specifically single handed and two handed offshore races where the pilot is used a fair bit. With instruments and pilot my consumption ticks over between 5 to 8 amps. Solar not really viable for racing. I owned a watt and sea for a while but found that putting it in water at speed was hard work and drag from it was over tenth of a knot.
Specific cost comparison not really done given lack of workable options for an 11m race boat. However given cost of campaigning a boat for a season it's negligible and it makes a nice change just to have a bit of kit that works.
Mistroma
Well-known member
Makes sense, I can see why drag would be bad when racing and solar would either get in the way or increase windage. I can see why you'd pick EFOY for that particular type of use.
It wasn't clear initially when you said you'd had EFOY in two boats, thought it was a great bit of kit and everyone who had seen the installations followed suit. I thought that this was very odd for cruising based on research I'd carried out a few years ago.
Makes perfect sense now you have explained the type use (mainly racing, so performance wins over cost).
Phildorset
Member
I'm another fan of the Efoy, my last two sailing boats have had one, currently my Mini derived Django 670 has the smallest version, silent and simple battery top ups, yes the fuel is quite expensive, but I'm only using 10 or 15ltrs a season. The initial purchase price is high, but it works for me. Solar would work for topping up between weekends - but not for extended sailing where a more immediate replenishment is required... on a larger boat or one with a main engine (I have tiny outboard) then there are probably better options I guess.
Spyro
Well-known member
Looked at a boat today that was for sale that had one. I'd never heard of them before but a search brought me to this post. Initial cost is expensive for such a low output. I know they burn fuel and output electricity but how exactly do they work?
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Spyro
Well-known member
Got it now thanks. Fuel at £40 a gallon , wow!
bbg
Active member
But clean and silent.
libertyman
Member
newtothis
Well-known member
Rough rule of thumb calculation puts that at £20 per gallon, which is still quite steep.
Spyro
Well-known member
Maybe the more you buy the cheaper it gets. I saw 5 litres at £40 I know that's a bit more than a gallon but near enough.
Mistroma
Well-known member
I checked online and was quoted £96 for 20 litres but delivery to Scotland (2 mins. from motorway) was £64.80 that made it £160.80, approx. £37.50 per gallon. I guess I'd need to always be close enough to pick it up.
ninjod
Member
I guess if you only look at that aspect of it then on the face of it it's pricey. However if your racing and don't want to run your engine in neutral for hours at a time, don't want to work your way through alternator belts, don't want to listen to the engine while off watch and do want something that you can just turn on and forget about then it's value becomes more than pounds per gallon.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
You're forgetting that the unit itself has a limited lifetime - the membranes last about 5 years. So you've got to add the write-off cost of the equipment to the cost of running it.
rotrax
Well-known member
It would be interesting to have a sample of fuel sent for analysis.
IIRC, a sales rep told me it is Methanol, but very pure.
My old mate Mario was boss of a Phamasutical Chemical Company nearby. He would fix me up with a 205 litre drum of the best it was possible to buy every season for use in my Track Racing bikes. He used it as a re-agent in producing his products.
He always asked me " Did your bike go better on my stuff-its the purest you can get! "
When he sent me the invoice it was about £1.40 per litre, so multiply by 4.4 equals£6.16 per gallon.
As it is not used for propulsion, but electricy generating, the fuel tax could be claimed back.
I cant imagine-and nor could he last time I spoke to him about it-what they do to get it more purified than the Methanol used in the production of industrial quantities of pharmasutical drug base.
Just saying.......................
IIRC, a sales rep told me it is Methanol, but very pure.
My old mate Mario was boss of a Phamasutical Chemical Company nearby. He would fix me up with a 205 litre drum of the best it was possible to buy every season for use in my Track Racing bikes. He used it as a re-agent in producing his products.
He always asked me " Did your bike go better on my stuff-its the purest you can get! "
When he sent me the invoice it was about £1.40 per litre, so multiply by 4.4 equals£6.16 per gallon.
As it is not used for propulsion, but electricy generating, the fuel tax could be claimed back.
I cant imagine-and nor could he last time I spoke to him about it-what they do to get it more purified than the Methanol used in the production of industrial quantities of pharmasutical drug base.
Just saying.......................
ninjod
Member
Pretty much everything we add to our yachts has a limited lifetime, sails being one great (expensive) example.
If we were to only ever consider the value of a component based purely on its cost and subsequent run rate we'd very quickly suck all the fun out of sailing. I appreciate fully that one person's value for money is another's expensive however my point was that the value of something is as much about its ease of use and what it ultimately facilitates as it is about what it cost.
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
Most things that cost as much as the eFoy cells have a considerably longer life-time, and the life-time can be extended by appropriate maintenance and/or part replacement. Not all of us replace sails on a regular basis, and many of us expect equipment to last for decades, not years. Most of the equipment on my yacht is as old as the boat; the exceptions are where I have upgraded to gain new capabilities.
Mistroma
Well-known member
The only support seems to come from racers rather than cruisers. I think an early pro-Efoy post stated that everyone who'd seen it thought it was great and wanted one. It then became clear that this related other racers. Perhaps it has found a niche market where high cost, short lifespan, drop in performance over time, difficulty in obtaining fuel when roaming around don't matter. It's just a matter of which features you value very highly (silent, light, etc.) and which don't matter as much in a particular context (price, longevity, etc.).
Mistroma
Well-known member
The fuel is just pretty pure Methanol, I'd guess at 99.8%-99.9%. I never researched the impact of specific impurities on fuel cells. I remember common impurities were often acetone and ethanol when using it in a laboratory many years ago, don't see much of a problem with these at very low concentrations. I'd doubt there'd be any problems using high purity Methanol (as that's what they sell for Efoy) apart from one big one. It will invalidate the warranty. I bet the seller would jump on that one WHEN output falls off after a year and you complain. I guess the could prove you'd been using something else if they are the only supplier of "legitimate Efoy fuel" and you have never bought any.
The apparently silly price and restricted availability for Methanol was yet another reason I wasn't keen to go for Efoy.
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