"Education not Legislation"

[maxi77]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

The other big difference between the roads and the water is kill some one on the roads and a small fine, few point and slapped wrist, do it on the water and it is a manslaughter charge with several years behind bars if found guilty.

As for the tabloids, whilst one may well go down the 'it must never happen again' you are just as likely to get the next one demanding our freedoms are preserved. Equally whilst the ciuntry as a whole may not be quite as calous about marine deaths as they are about road deaths, as long as we don't have a spate all together.

One of the tabloids tried it after a squall created real problems at a dinghy event and got well slapped down when it was shown the organisers had planned for such an occurence, operated the plan properly and there had in fact been little real risk.

All of this of course does not mean we shouldn't be vigilant over our rights.

 

[alan_d]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
Even moorings that are personal laid and not part of a club / HM's etc. will be subject to local bye-laws requiring min. Insurance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily.

I have a private swinging mooring in a Scottish sea-loch. I had to obtain consent to lay it under Section 34 of the Coast Protection Act 1949 and I have to pay an annual fee to the Crown Estate for rental of the sea bed, but there is no requirement for my boat to be insured. (It is, though.)

Alan

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

The frustrating thing with "statistics" is that they are often collected in a way that satisfies the collectors needs. Clearly for the RNLI they need to show as high a number of meaningful launches as possible in the widest range of circumstances. Then they have to show that they are "effective" in "saving lives". So they invent their own three definitions of risk that on first reading suggest that over 300 people would have died each year without their intervention. I do not believe this for one minute, but these figures are derived from a tick box report form that is completed after every launch and is reliant on the judgement of the person ticking the boxes.

As far as the public image is concerned this is set by the regular dramatised rescue programmes on prime time TV which cast them as the heros saving the incompetent from themselves!

Don't get me wrong, I have every admiration for lifeboatmen and their achievements, it is just that it has become one of the richest and self serving charities in the country. Because it is not accountable to anybody we do not know how cost effective it is - but it certainly knows how to spend money up to the maximum of its donations - see the latest All Weather design to see what can be done with vast budgets.

If we were serious about understanding the causes of accidents and how to prevent them we would analyse each incident from that perspective and not put them into blanket high level, often meaningless categories. MAIB investigations do this, as do investigators of incidents involving aircraft and commercial shipping.

 

[maxi77]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

What you say is very true but do you want the lifebaots run by the same people who run the coastguard?

 

[gandy]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
So, if we don't have some sort of minimum standard set by exam or certificate, the minimum should be compulsory third party insurance. Perhps for over a certain power or size.

[/ QUOTE ]Insurance itself may start to apply some pressure on training but what I've seen so far is so inept as to be laughable. When I first bought our sailing cruiser our existing insurers said they wouldn't cover me until I passed either Coastal Skipper (ridiculous as an entry level) or Powerboat Level II (clearly irrelevant). If they'd been the only insurers then presumably I'd have spent a weekend doing the PBII course, but I don't imagine that would have added anything to my judgement or competence in a sailing cruiser.

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

The UK is possibly unique in that such an important rescue service is run by a charitable body. Elsewhere it is run by government or government funded agencies.

Normally I would not support government run services, but funding is vulnerable. At the moment RNLI is "rich", but if that changed and income from donations fell the service may suffer. It is difficult to assess whether the current system is effecient because as I pointed out the charity spends up to its level of income.

Whilst it does make an effort towards promoting safety at sea, it tends to concentrate on the "easy" bits rather than really getting to grips with the often complex causes of incidents.

 

[lw395]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

From the T-graph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...king-exams.html
This is what happens when you make the certificates compulsory?

 

[Refueler]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

As I understand it - RNLI has Charity Status and therefore has to clear funds. It cannot accrue and build a large bank balance. Maybe I'm wrong ?

On a much smaller and less serious scale - I'm involved with creating a new Yachting Association over here and that has similar financial limitations - all funds in must be used other than an agreed float balance.

 

[jhr]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it - RNLI has Charity Status and therefore has to clear funds. It cannot accrue and build a large bank balance. Maybe I'm wrong ?


[/ QUOTE ] Not quite true. The Charity Commissioners aren't wild about charities holding massive reserves but they recognise that Trustees have to make prudent provision for lean times. I'm a Trustee of an educational charity and we keep about 1 year's turnover in reserve, to see us through periods when income (mostly from trading in our case) is down. We've taken advice on this in the past and been told that it's a reasonable provision to make. I'd guess the RNLI have been told similar.

 

[Refueler]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

Thanks for that ... as I said - I wasn't sure. But you have highlighted that excessive balance may not be acceptable.

ta !

 

[Tranona]

Re: \"Education not Legislation\"

2008 Accounts show
Income of £170m. 31% from fundraising, 55% from legacies, 10% from merchandising and balance mainly from investment

Expenditure 22.4m on fundraising, 9m on merchandise, 116m on rescue and prevention.

Surplus to reserves of 22m. Losses on investments 60m, fall in reserves from 551 to 511.

Note that reserves represent mostly fixed assets, operating machinery and investments.

 

[VexedIllologist]

Education not legislation

To wind this topic up again, why should there be legislation in lieu of education?

There is no pressing need for it. Will hill walkers be required to undergo training and have licences? Bicyclists? The list could be a long one.

Remember that Britain rewards solo circumnavigators with considerable honours, not prosecution.

Regardless of the notable endeavours involved the indisputable fact remains that such egocentric voyages are consciously undertaken in breach of Rule 5 of the Rules (and so break the law). The MCA is quite happy to condone this.

By contrast a Cornish solo fisherman (probably struggling to make a living and, evidently, without influential corporate sponsors) who fell asleep in open water was ruthlessly prosecuted at the behest of the MCA.

So stands the 'rule of law'.

Unless and until there is enforcement of existing law (and there is plenty of it already, including harbour byelaws, but it is not often used), why should yet more be produced?

 

[snowleopard]

I still think boats under instruction should fly a flag /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I thought they used a black cone point downwards.

 

[snowleopard]

This topic has been re-hashed ad nauseam on this forum so I won't prolong the agony. The problem with the numpty referred to in the OP and seen by all of us regularly out on the water is that they confuse 'no need for qualifications' with 'no need for knowledge'.

How do you get across to these people the fact that their ignorance can kill themselves, their passengers and, from time to time, other water users?

 

[V1701]

The mantra of the RYA for as long as we can remember - but is it really the best option?

Last night I watched a small (about 20ft) yacht come storming up to a slipway, doing 16+ knots with the benefit of a 60hp outboard weighing down the back end. Failing to stop quite soon enough, he rammed the slip, leaving a significant amount of his gelcoat embellishing the concrete. Backing off, he tried again, and missed the slip altogether. 3rd time lucky, he got close enough for his crew to leap ashore ... almost. Fortunately, the water wasn't deep, and the boat wasn't close enough to squash the poor wet unfortunate against the hard stuff. By that time I'd got myself down to the slip and took a line, which the skipper then swung completely around on with his 60 horses revving away until the prop found it was no match for the rocks underneath at which point it coughed nastily and went quiet. Half an hour later, we had the engine running again, and the rest of the crew ashore (they seemed in quite a hurry to come off, for some reason). The skipper planned to take the boat out to a visitor mooring, and at the last moment remembered that he would need some means to get himself ashore. Young crew member dispatched with car key to collect "dinghy" which turned out to be a paddling-pool toy bought in the final death-throws of Woolies. Wind has been picking up and is now blowing a steady F5, but skipper is determined that he can cope with mooring up and getting safely ashore. Several interested spectators by now, one of whom has the Coastguard number just one press away on his mobile phone. Another phone call rather judiciously alerted a friendly local with a RIB who turned up to help after the hapless skipper had spent almost 40 minutes trying to pick up his mooring. 10 minutes later, with everything now under control, the RIB delivered the skipper back to shore. Wife was overheard suggesting to skipper that perhaps he should get some training. Response: "There's no need - you don't have to have training in this country"

OK. True and accurate. There is still no requirement to be trained - but is that still the most appropriate response?

What do you think??

I think I might have waited until he asked for help, maybe then more chance of it sinking in how much out of his depth he was? But that guy is probably gonna behave like a d**kh**d with or without a licence, whether he's driving a boat, a car, a motorbike...

 

[ctelfer38]

A Better Comparison.......

between 'licensed' and 'unlicensed' standards is reached when MAIB reports are read in detail. The incidents in the licensed commercial sector feature proportionately much higher - and with more serious outcomes - than does the recreational, despite close regulation and supervision of the MCA. Those involved with the commercial sector will know only too well how intensely the MCA oversee every aspect of vessels, equipments, manning levels and crew qualifications.
The UK voluntary training/qualification system for the recreational sector by comparison performs rather well. Let's leave well alone.
CBT

 

[Beadle]

I'll throw my 2 cents worth into the ring.

With all the training and testing to drive a car some 3500 people a year are killed on the roads and the examples of the sort of lunacy described occur on a daily basis, so regularly they escape comment.

The gentleman mentioned will do 1 of 3 things

1 Realise he is not driving his car and start to learn

2 Spend so much money on repairs that he loses interest and takes up needlepoint

3 Kill himself (and/or someone else I guess) and so cease to be an issue

Its only the "someone else" that concerns me and really the probability is so low as to be regarded as an acceptable risk. For me the joy of "escaping" this over-regulated lawyer ridden society for even a few hours more than overrides the risks of meeting the occasional loony.

There are always risks in going to sea - if anyone is so risk averse they really ought to look at some other pastime.

We all die sometime.

As an afterthought: If all boats had to be steered by tiller rather than a wheel my theory is that the number of incidents of this sort would reduce dramatically.

 

[dt4134]

[A better comparison...] between 'licensed' and 'unlicensed' standards is reached when MAIB reports are read in detail. The incidents in the licensed commercial sector feature proportionately much higher - and with more serious outcomes - than does the recreational, despite close regulation and supervision of the MCA. CBT

That's a bit unfair on the commercial sector. In general a yachtsman would have to kill himself or someone else to earn an MAIB report whereas scratching the paintwork a bit is sufficient in the commercial sector.

 

[ctelfer38]

Unfair comparison?

That's a bit unfair on the commercial sector. In general a yachtsman would have to kill himself or someone else to earn an MAIB report whereas scratching the paintwork a bit is sufficient in the commercial sector.

My comparison is not made to level criticism at the commercial sector; but to put recreational incidents in some context. Your own comment suggests you also believe also that yachtsmen generally presents little danger to the world at large - as do I.

 

[dt4134]

I should've put a smiley in my last post.

Yes, I agree there isn't a big issue requiring legislation. The current system works. My opinion is that compulsory quals would make the situation worse because any conceivable compulsory qualification will be at too low a level.

I'd go further and say that the YM Offshore is probably the lowest level that would indicate a resonable level of competence (I'm not really knocking it but just that I consider it only the end of the beginning of the learning curve).

There is no way that that YM could be made compulsory and to tell someone with a lower level that they're fully qualified is dangerous.

Far better that we all realise that we still have a lot to learn no matter how much we've learnt already. Those at the bottom of the learning curve (like the skipper mentioned in the OP) who don't know yet will soon learn (maybe he's learnt already).