Dylan was right!

[contessaman]

The Centaur ( late light models especially ) behaves quite well in the hands of a decent sailor who knows about sail trim.

They only got a reputation as motor sailors because they had 23hp Volvo's, this was simply because Westerlys were offered a good deal by Volvo !

The Centaur may not have the looks of a Contessa but I've been in a F8 in one and she did us proud.

seajet, perhaps instantaneously, we are in agreement.

I crew on a friends centaur quite a lot. wasn't it one of the first to have tank tested bilge keels that produce lift to windward. They sail and look absolutely fine to my eye for what they are. For a while some even had watermota sea-panther 4 cylinder diesels in them. The one I crew on has a 3 cylinder beta in the mid 20 hp range. you could probably get away with 12hp but its not a racing yacht so why not have a bigger engine incase you need it? that way you can punch into a chop or tow another vessel to safety if so required.
my ood34 had a seapanther which was overkill but I notice jeremy fitted it to the contessa 43 (now theres a nice boat) as well. again he probably got a good deal on it - weight saving didnt really matter on the ood when raced as intended. when I craned the seized seapanther from my ood against the harbour wall, the trim was way off without it so she had obviously been designed around the weight of that motor. had I been able to afford to replace it with a light modern diesel the trim would have been off I think- I would have needed ballast.

same probably goes for a centaur if one took the penta out and stuck an outboard on the back.

Biggest sailing let down with the centaur is the roller boom. but its easily enough converted to jiffy reefing on the main. then you can reef her down AND flatten the main. balance the helm with the roller genoa for a tiny bit of weather helm and off you go at a respectable rate. They have bought a lot of fun to a lot of people.

Here's to the OP getting his penta fixed in short order and at modest cost.

 

[UncleAlbert]

Well Tam Lin the weekend has passed and I hope that you have a clearer picture of your engine status. What did your tame engineer friend find?

Hopefully the banter in regard to 'other boats' will have exhauisted itself and the subject matter in hand can be dealt with sensibly.

 

[Tam Lin]

Well Tam Lin the weekend has passed and I hope that you have a clearer picture of your engine status. What did your tame engineer friend find?

Hopefully the banter in regard to 'other boats' will have exhauisted itself and the subject matter in hand can be dealt with sensibly.

Hi Uncle Albert, Did you get my reply to your PM last week as I am not sure if it went?

The engineer came over to the boat last Sunday and took the heads off. As expected the head gasket had gone and some of the water channels were completely blocked. The pistons look in good shape and the rings are free. We took the heads back to his workshop and he had a look at the valve seats which have to be re-ground and he will need to send them away for that. Although the engine can be repaired, if I get him to do it then I am looking at a minimum of something well over £1000 and a maximum of who knows? It depends what else he finds.
If fixed it will still leave me with a 40 year old engine and who knows what is going to fail on it next and getting spare parts is not straightforward. I have had a lot of good advice from this forum and people at the sailing club. If I had any engineering skills it would be worthwhile doing the work myself but spending well over £1K does not seem cost effective when I could put that money towards a new engine.
So at the moment I am dithering - will have to make my mind up soon!

 

[FullCircle]

Hi Uncle Albert, Did you get my reply to your PM last week as I am not sure if it went?

The engineer came over to the boat last Sunday and took the heads off. As expected the head gasket had gone and some of the water channels were completely blocked. The pistons look in good shape and the rings are free. We took the heads back to his workshop and he had a look at the valve seats which have to be re-ground and he will need to send them away for that. Although the engine can be repaired, if I get him to do it then I am looking at a minimum of something well over £1000 and a maximum of who knows? It depends what else he finds.
If fixed it will still leave me with a 40 year old engine and who knows what is going to fail on it next and getting spare parts is not straightforward. I have had a lot of good advice from this forum and people at the sailing club. If I had any engineering skills it would be worthwhile doing the work myself but spending well over £1K does not seem cost effective when I could put that money towards a new engine.
So at the moment I am dithering - will have to make my mind up soon!

Is yours the one with the rotted out side case plates?

 

[UncleAlbert]

Well at least yours is definitely a head gasket.
You have the uneviable task of making your mind up on what to do.
I also pondered for about three weeks on whether to replace or repair and for what its worth I reckoned that a rebuild would probably last another 30 years after which I probably wont care too much.

You probably have enough info to make your decision and you will be happy what ever you decide.
Just remember there is a market for MDIIC spares/old bits, so dont let your engineer run off with the old one if you go down teh replacement route.

Good luck and see you on the water hopefully before the season runs out.


ps I got your reply and tried to respond but the PM process is not intuitive to me.

 

[vyv_cox]

I suggest your engineer is making the most of your problem. From your description I cannot imagine for one moment where £1000 comes from. Grinding valves in is a simple job that I have been doing since I was 16, at virtually no cost at all. Cleaning the waterways of your cylinder head(s) is unskilled work that you could be doing, as is removal of the heads in the first place. I suggest that firstly you query just what the money is to be spent on, but secondly, take urgent steps to learn how to do it yourself. These old engines are easy to work on, the manuals are available at no cost and surely you can find somebody to give hands-on advice to get you started.

 

[Searush]

I suggest your engineer is making the most of your problem. From your description I cannot imagine for one moment where £1000 comes from. Grinding valves in is a simple job that I have been doing since I was 16, at virtually no cost at all. Cleaning the waterways of your cylinder head(s) is unskilled work that you could be doing, as is removal of the heads in the first place. I suggest that firstly you query just what the money is to be spent on, but secondly, take urgent steps to learn how to do it yourself. These old engines are easy to work on, the manuals are available at no cost and surely you can find somebody to give hands-on advice to get you started.

In complete agreement with Vyv, a grand seems high & grinding valves on an engine whose design dates back to WW2-ish is not going to be special. A sucker on a stick & 2 tubs of grinding paste were what would have been used in any workshop when it was new, they will work just as well today. The point is that these things (and cleaning the waterways) are basic manual labour but take time, & you are being charged 20 squid an hour for a skilled professional to do them I suspect.

Do the work yourself & get him to inspect it - tons cheaper & an excellent learning experience.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

you are being charged 20 squid an hour for a skilled professional to do them I suspect.

£20 per hour for skilled labour? How quaint

 

[Seajet]

Tam Lin,

a chum just bought a smart late model well equipped Centaur for a real bargain price, I won't say how much for his discretion and so as not to affect prices, this must have been a one-off for personal reasons - he did have her surveyed.

Anyway she has a brand new 3 cylinder Nannidiesel, I am used to Centaurs with the old Volvo and the Nanni is natuarally MUCH smoother, weight is probably the same or maybe even a touch lighter as trim seems fine.

 

[Searush]

£20 per hour for skilled labour? How quaint

That depends where you are and whether you are paying the guy direct or thro a garage or other organisation with humungous overheads. You can get skilled workers for far less round here if you pay cash in hand. It was a simple ball park for direct payment to a mechanic. Paid work is hard to get these days & the current Govt has made sure lots of people are desperate for money.

Why not ask the OP what rates he is actually paying if you don't like my estimate, or do you only do sneering from the sidelines rather than helpful comments?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Why not ask the OP what rates he is actually paying if you don't like my estimate, or do you only do sneering from the sidelines rather than helpful comments?

Stop spluttering through your beard. It wasn't a serious comment. The clue is in the smiley. I suspect if the mechanic wants £1000 to fix the engine then the labour rate won't be £20/h. The OP's boat is not in darkest Staffordshire either, it's in rip-off darn sarf country.

 

[toad]

Tam Lin, speak to Neil (Trumpeter) he was in the same situation a few years ago and went down the re engine route.

 

[Tam Lin]

Is yours the one with the rotted out side case plates?

No, they are in fair condition but could do with a coat of paint

"From your description I cannot imagine for one moment where £1000 comes from. Grinding valves in is a simple job that I have been doing since I was 16, at virtually no cost at all."
Did I mean valve seat cutting. The engineer looked at them through a magnifying glass before saying that they would have to be sent away. All I saw was some slight pitting, how bad does it need to be before it can't be re-ground? I remember my dad doing the job when I was a lad so could probably manage that myself! Could probably poke the gunge out from the waterways with a stick as well if that's all it takes!

Searush, you are not far out in your estimate of hourly rate, it also helps that he is not registered for VAT.

Seajet, That's the whole trouble, I could probably buy a better boat for not much more than a new engine would cost me!

Toad, will PM you as soon as I have finished this post.

Thanks for all your advice guys, it has made me think (again), what I have realised is that I don't mind keeping the MD2B if the cost is right but resent spending big money on an old engine as the cash could go towards a new one. I have also learnt that I must ask for more details rather than just accept a figure for the job. I am on a steep learning curve and will go and sit down and read the chapter on diesel engines in Nigel Calder's manual as well as the workshop manual for the Volvo.

 

[vyv_cox]

The difference between valve seat grinding and cutting is only the amount of metal that needs to be removed. When seats become pitted the professional engineer will look at the time involved and suggest cutting because it removes metal more quickly = cheaper. The poor amateur, whose time costs nothing, will simply grind for longer. The final result will be the same but the palms of your hands will be bruised!

 

[ghostlymoron]

I wouldn't think it's financially viable to re-engine your boat. IMO DIY if you can, GAMI if not. The outboard option is not worthy of consideration on your size of boat.
Vyv, in the past, on old car engines, I've re-ground valves using a power drill on slow speed carefully and re-positioning the valve regularly.

 

[contessaman]

Tam lin could you please itemise the work that your engineer believes needs to be carried out?

If its just skim the head(s) and lap in the valves that seems awfully expensive. like - really really expensive. I would have said more like a hundred or two for someone to do the heads for you. I bet he wont do it himself so is he really charging £900 ish to remove and refit the heads and take them to an engineering company?

The trouble is if you pay a 'marine engineer' to fix everthing on your engine, you are dead right -its already beyond economic repair. Im really trying to tell you that you should have a go yourself thats what this forum and practical boat owning is all about. I couldn't afford to run my boat if I didnt do 99% of all maintenance and repairs myself.

Why dont you take the head(s) off. take them to somebody for skimming and lapping in. you clear out the cooling channels im sure there are threads on here about doing that. you refit the heads and see what happens. If it works great. if not. well you havent spent a grand and you are no worse off.

by the way engine age (40 years?) doesn't have anything to do with how worn it is. Its the hours on the motor that are important. Do you have an hour meter or running log? About 5000 hours between major overhauls is about right for a diesel engine.

if the head work doesnt work what about a used 2000 series volvo?

If all else fails I still think you would be better off paying a grand for the guy to fix your engine. Sell your centaur for about £4500 with a working original engine (since you dont trust it and are convinced of subsequent failure). then go out and buy another centaur for £6500 - £7500 that has been recently re-engined. this will be far cheaper than you buying a nanni or beta for yours, not to mention installation costs.
There are plenty of people out there trying to sell centaurs with newish engines for £12k but they are on another planet. They are clinging to the idea that the new engine has made their boat worth a lot more. These cantaurs have been for sale for years. I know of one that sold recently with a very recent nanni for just over £6K. Its only downside was the topsides were painted blue not original gelcoat and these looked a bit shabby.

Id hate to see you spend a fortune on a new motor then like most of us, outgrow or get bored with the boat after a few years and you would loose a sh*tload of cash.

all my opinion not gospel but I have had several yachts myself and have seen a lot of people at my club go through your trials with old engines in 70s boats...

 

[FullCircle]

I know the engineer very well. There is apparently some disparity of scope of work between here and there. I think that speculation of value should only be between the OP and his engineer, as I find supposition and postulation without all the facts is, well, you know.

 

[Tam Lin]

I know the engineer very well. There is apparently some disparity of scope of work between here and there. I think that speculation of value should only be between the OP and his engineer, as I find supposition and postulation without all the facts is, well, you know.

The engineer of whom we speak is well known locally and has worked for me before. After considerable thought and a lot of advice I have asked him to do the necessary work on the engine. He will give it a thorough refurbishment, keep me informed of progress and of what he finds during disassembly. I am going to have to wait a few weeks as he is busy at this time of year. Despite urgings from forum members I do not have the confidence to tackle this myself and I am sure that he will do a good job for me. So, it is going to cost me but nowhere near as much as a new engine. At some point you have to trust someone!

Contessaman, you are exactly right. For the price of a new engine and all the fittings I can buy a re-engined Centaur. For a couple of grand more I can get one which has been carefully maintained and upgraded with recent sails, rigging, spray hood, instruments etc. I may very well take your advice and sell my present boat and upgrade. OTOH my confidence in the engine may be restored and I will keep her and continue to improve her over time.

I feel much happier now that a decision has been made! Thanks to everyone for your advice and comments, I really appreciate the input especially the information that the engine can be re-conditioned and will go on for a good while yet. I will post again when there is anything to report and will let everyone know the final outcome. Thanks once again for your contributions.

 

[Bilgediver]

Well after spending last season working on my Centaur and launching it earlier this year the old Volvo MD2B has blown its head gasket and bent a pushrod. So now I am in the position that Dylan has talked about, having to make an expensive decision about an old diesel engine. Do I now try and get the old engine repaired (then possibly sell the boat as I don't think that I will be able to trust her again), fit a new engine and keep her or try to sell her as she is and buy a boat with an outboard, which will keep any future repair bills under control. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Mine is that you live and learn and learning costs you!

Before giving up why not tell us more. You should be able to inspect the head and the block gasket surfaces and tell us why the gasket blew. The appearance near the water ports tells a story. Is one or both surfaces gas cut (grooved by leaking gas) Is there corrosion . I am curious why push rods are bending but these should be easy to replace. The surfaces of both the head and block should look smooth with no discolouration If not smooth then something has to be done and this could be cheaper than a new engine. Just tell us what you are seeing or post piccies.

 

[FullCircle]

The engineer of whom we speak is well known locally and has worked for me before. After considerable thought and a lot of advice I have asked him to do the necessary work on the engine. He will give it a thorough refurbishment, keep me informed of progress and of what he finds during disassembly. I am going to have to wait a few weeks as he is busy at this time of year. Despite urgings from forum members I do not have the confidence to tackle this myself and I am sure that he will do a good job for me. So, it is going to cost me but nowhere near as much as a new engine. At some point you have to trust someone!

Contessaman, you are exactly right. For the price of a new engine and all the fittings I can buy a re-engined Centaur. For a couple of grand more I can get one which has been carefully maintained and upgraded with recent sails, rigging, spray hood, instruments etc. I may very well take your advice and sell my present boat and upgrade. OTOH my confidence in the engine may be restored and I will keep her and continue to improve her over time.

I feel much happier now that a decision has been made! Thanks to everyone for your advice and comments, I really appreciate the input especially the information that the engine can be re-conditioned and will go on for a good while yet. I will post again when there is anything to report and will let everyone know the final outcome. Thanks once again for your contributions.

I guarantee the outcome. The engine will be restored and refurbished to probably better than original spec. He does fret about each and every one, which is rare these days. But a quick job is never on the cards.