Dunstaffnage marina nightmare

+1 endorsement for Kerrera these days.
The new management have brought a good attitude, and steady infrastructure investment.
Agree that Croabh and perhaps Ardfern, have the best all round storm shelter near Oban. But many boats over winter at Kerrera, including ourselves for many years, on the water, and with no problems.
 
dovekie said:
+1 endorsement for Kerrera these days.
The new management have brought a good attitude, and steady infrastructure investment.
Agree that Croabh and perhaps Ardfern, have the best all round storm shelter near Oban. But many boats over winter at Kerrera, including ourselves for many years, on the water, and with no problems.
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+2
I was there in May. Very nice, pleasant, helpful.
 
Should've said while defending Dunstaffnage. I too am delighted with the service and atmosphere on Kerrera.

In my defence of Dunstaffnage I did refer to "current staff". Not so long ago I would not have been so positive. (You could add that comment to Kerrera too.)
 
yotter said:
That is an interesting question with reference to insurance. I get a 'Marina Discount', and I specify in my insurance that this is Craobh in summer and Kip in winter (renewal just came through and it is specifically named. Note that it does not say Pontoon Berth but Marina. I wonder if I change my winter berthage location to Dunstaffnage, will my premium increase due to the assumed higher percentage of damage / insurance claims there?
Angus
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To be clear, the destinations described as "pontoon berth" rather than "marina" don't let you pay for a whole season (except dinghies) - they are "per night" arrangements. I think your insurer might need some explanation why you left a boat for several day unattended especially if it has warning signs.

If we are talking about stays of 72hrs or less I can't think of the last time a weather forecast in that timescale produced wind directions that were wrong by more than 45 deg, winds underestimated by more than one 'force' or timings were wrong by more than 12 hrs. So it's not hard to know when unsuitable conditions are coming, especially since swell takes time to build. Provided you can get back to the boat in 48 hrs or so to move it.

Personally I don't want full on marinas in each destination, and certainly don't want to pay the fees that such an investment (shared between a finite number of users) would entail.
 
mainsail1 said:
Ah, but there is my point. Tobermory charges a full marina fee and extra if you have showers.
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What point? The pontoons are not compulsory, the visitors moorings are cheaper and the Harbour maintain a clear area inshore in reasonable depths for those who want to anchor, not many do. Must be some reason for that.

As someone who used to try to anchor at Tob. in up to 50m. among randomly laid moorings before the present developments took place I appreciate how the locals have developed their harbour to benefit local sailors and visiting whingers in yachts.
 
Tobermory allows short stays during the day, and asks only for a 'contribution'. Fine for a spot of shopping, lunch, washing machines, and showers.

Compare that with Mallaig or Oban transit pontoons; pretty hefty charges for short stays.

Having used Tobermory for half a century and, like Quandry, anchored in 20 fathoms (as it was then), I have nothing but praise for the present facility.
 
Minchsailor said:
Tobermory allows short stays during the day, and asks only for a 'contribution'. Fine for a spot of shopping, lunch, washing machines, and showers.

Compare that with Mallaig or Oban transit pontoons; pretty hefty charges for short stays.

Having used Tobermory for half a century and, like Quandry, anchored in 20 fathoms (as it was then), I have nothing but praise for the present facility.
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,
Agree with that. Tobermory Harbour Authority take the enlightened grownup attitude that people using the moorings or pontoons for a short stay, are probably there to make use of some of the local facilities, and are therefore contributing to the local economy, so do not make a formal charge.
To get back to the OP's original moan, most competent skippers will assess the degree of shelter afforded by anchorages, moorings, harbours and marinas, before committing to a long term stay. Eyeballs, Sailing Directions, or a glance at the chart, are usually enough.
 
I am sorry some think I am a 'moaner', 'whinger' or incompetent. What constitutes fair comment then?

One day, when your boat is damaged on a poorly situated pontoon you may agree with me.
If someone charges the public for the use of a pontoon it is reasonable to expect that your boat will be safe when using the facility.
If, like Tobermory, a large swell is likely to hit the pontoons when the wind is moderate and from a specific direction ( it was less than 15 knots when it happened to me) it is reasonable to expect the provider of the pontoons to have taken all necessary steps to mitigate the problem. If such steps are too expensive, IMHO the pontoons should not be installed in that location or the provider should not allow boats to use the pontoons on days that are considered to be dangerous (which, of course, is usually impracticable).
The visitor cannot know local conditions as well as the pontoon provider....until it is too late.
 
mainsail1 said:
.... The visitor cannot know local conditions as well as the pontoon provider....until it is too late.
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I understand what you are saying but at the end of the day it is your assessment of the risk that counts. You are only paying for the convenience of shore side access.
 
mainsail1 said:
.........If such steps are too expensive, IMHO the pontoons should not be installed in that location or the provider should not allow boats to use the pontoons on days that are considered to be dangerous (which, of course, is usually impracticable). The visitor cannot know local conditions as well as the pontoon provider....until it is too late.
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With respect I disagree. Skippers also have responsibility to assess whether a temporary visitor berth is likely to be suitable, and have a bail out strategy if the weather changes.
If visitor pontoons had to have 360 degree shelter for all wind conditions or not be there, then most facilities (other than a handful of permanent berthing marinas) would have to be removed from places like the West of Scotland (and elsewhere, including Channel Islands, Lyme Bay, many in Brittany etc).
This would be a huge loss to all the seamanlike crews using the facilties in the 95% of time when they are safe and tenable.

Cowes can perhaps fund, and get planning permission, for a mega rock wave break. And in some busy locations they can afford permanent harbour staffing. But small island trusts etc don’t have access to these funds, nor will big rock breakwaters necessarily be allowed.
Why should these facilities be unavailable to the rest of us?
 
mainsail1 said:
I am sorry some think I am a 'moaner', 'whinger' or incompetent. What constitutes fair comment then?

One day, when your boat is damaged on a poorly situated pontoon you may agree with me.
If someone charges the public for the use of a pontoon it is reasonable to expect that your boat will be safe when using the facility.
If, like Tobermory, a large swell is likely to hit the pontoons when the wind is moderate and from a specific direction ( it was less than 15 knots when it happened to me) it is reasonable to expect the provider of the pontoons to have taken all necessary steps to mitigate the problem. If such steps are too expensive, IMHO the pontoons should not be installed in that location or the provider should not allow boats to use the pontoons on days that are considered to be dangerous (which, of course, is usually impracticable).
The visitor cannot know local conditions as well as the pontoon provider....until it is too late.
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Sorry, but I think you are moaning.

It should be obvious to all users or potential users that the pontoons at several sites are not sheltered in all conditions. Tobermory, for example, has a clear notice to that effect.

Last year, when a particular gale was well forecast, I happened to be in the vicinity of Lochmaddy, where there are pontoons, which are certainly not sheltered in all directions of wind. I chose to anchor in one of the many sheltered branches of Lochmaddy, and rode out the gale in comfort and safety. Several yachts chose to berth at the pontoons, and apparently chaos ensued, with police and coastguard being called out to help, because of the conditions. This was the gale when the oil rig which was under tow off the west coast of Lewis was driven ashore.

No one is compelled to make use of pontoon berths, and it is entirely up to you whether you think there will be adequate shelter. It's just the same as choosing an anchorage, you have to decide whether it will give you shelter.
 
I fail to understand this. You as skipper are responsible for all that happens to your boat. If you don't like the price, don't like the service, or don't like the conditions don't use it. There's no need to complain - you have complete freedom. Embracing that responsibility is one of the things that makes skippering so rewarding. I always say to crew, "If there is a cock-up it is the skipper's fault - every single time." All sorts of things can go wrong, minor and major. If you asked a crew member to do something they couldn't manage it was your mistake. If you chose a berth badly it's your mistake. If your sought advice and that advice was wrong it's your mistake. If you believed an accredited expert wrongly, it's your mistake. It may seem perverse, but this is one of the main reasons why I like sailing. Escape from the bureaucracy and have no chance to blame the bureaucracy. I sailed the west coast of Scotland long before there were yacht pontoons. There were places were it was safe to go alongside in the right conditions - you applied judgement. You still have to. Sometimes you'll get things wrong and have to solve unexpected problems - but that's part of your job.
 
mainsail1 said:
I am sorry some think I am a 'moaner', 'whinger' or incompetent. What constitutes fair comment then?

One day, when your boat is damaged on a poorly situated pontoon you may agree with me.
If someone charges the public for the use of a pontoon it is reasonable to expect that your boat will be safe when using the facility.
If, like Tobermory, a large swell is likely to hit the pontoons when the wind is moderate and from a specific direction ( it was less than 15 knots when it happened to me) it is reasonable to expect the provider of the pontoons to have taken all necessary steps to mitigate the problem. If such steps are too expensive, IMHO the pontoons should not be installed in that location or the provider should not allow boats to use the pontoons on days that are considered to be dangerous (which, of course, is usually impracticable).
The visitor cannot know local conditions as well as the pontoon provider....until it is too late.
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I can't agree with you on this. YOU as skipper are responsible, no one else.

Visitors should have the knowledge and experience to decide when and where it is safe to moor or anchor their boat, if they don't then they should get it before venturing afloat.

Or smile and accept the consequences.

Im with Amulet on the freedom from the insidious, creeping bureaucracy and also the ' blame culture' that is polluting life...
 
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I think you have to differentiate between visitor pontoons ie Tobermory, and full on marinas. Tobermory has a clear sign regarding conditions that cause issues, its not a place you could or should leave your boat unattended for a week. Dunstaffnage on the other hand is a full on marina, a place you should be able to leave your boat , and rely on a duty of care from the marina staff who are there to take extra precautions. The fact that boats routinely get badly damaged there is not posted on a big sign. Yes you can look at a chart, but in all honestly its not obvious that a northerly wind ( and only 20knts FFS) will cause serious problems. Its fine if you are a local, but in all the time I was there the top management of the marina never communicated any risks. It was one dedicated manager and his team who ensured boats stayed safe.
 
stevepick said:
I think you have to differentiate between visitor pontoons ie Tobermory, and full on marinas. Tobermory has a clear sign regarding conditions that cause issues, its not a place you could or should leave your boat unattended for a week. Dunstaffnage on the other hand is a full on marina, a place you should be able to leave your boat , and rely on a duty of care from the marina staff who are there to take extra precautions. The fact that boats routinely get badly damaged there is not posted on a big sign. Yes you can look at a chart, but in all honestly its not obvious that a northerly wind ( and only 20knts FFS) will cause serious problems. Its fine if you are a local, but in all the time I was there the top management of the marina never communicated any risks. It was one dedicated manager and his team who ensured boats stayed safe.
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Dunstaffnage, Rhu, Ardfern have all had boat and marina damage caused by strong winds and waves. In my earlier post I referred to Kip in bad weather, I was at Kip when damage was being caused by extreme winds. The marina staff closed off the pontoons such was the motion. Sometimes it is just too dangerous to send people onto the pontoons to try and save boats. The conditions that boats are damaged have no relevance to how well the yacht is secured and the high risk to marina staff in these conditions is not worth it. In my subsequent post on the insurance, I am pretty sure the company was checking what marina it was as the underwriters probably know the risky ones. You can't trust marinas that are exposed to a decent fetch, end of story, nor can you rely on the marina to look after your boat; that is the hard fact.
 
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