Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[LONG_KEELER]

Why should insurance companies be responsible for this? How do they determine if an individual is "new" or needs instruction? They assess risk and charge an appropriate premium, applying restrictions if necessary.

There is more than enough information available already on how to operate a boat safely and where to get training.

I assume when you are selling boats to newcomers you point them in the direction of the RNLI and RYA.

Pity that you take such a tone. Can't we just have a free discussion on matters that are before us ?

I do not sell boats or provide instruction. I work in a marina but do come into contact with people starting sailing and motorboating for the first time.

I do not think it unreasonable that a marina operator should make sure that a new berth holder has some basic knowledge to the benefit of the rest of the inhabitants. After all, many business's clubs to some kind of vetting to protect others.

During the summer, I doubt if a week passes without some kind of scrape. In fact, there is an on site provider of gelcoat repairs etc who makes a very good living.

If the Marina's Insurance made it a requirement that say a starter pack including a video/dvd should be provided I think it would be to everybody's benefit and very much welcomed by the family who are starting out.

 

[Refueler]

Sorry, that is just scaremongering. Local authorities hav no responsibility for maritime matters. This is a central government responsibility. Registration and crewing of British ships is the responsibility of Department of Transport and maritime safety the MCA. Neither of these bodies has shown any interest in testing and licencing leisure sailors.

The only way that could change would be a political process of the "something must be done" variety such as the one that brought the drink law in (even though it has not yet been implemented). There is no sign of this. The other way is through international pressure such as that which brought in the SSR. However this has already been dealt with the UK being one of the leading proponents of the ICC under the UN resolution.

Does not mean we collectively should not be vigilant and use every opportunity through our representative bodies to demonstrate there is no need for tests and licencing.

True - but there are plans to devolve various parts of Marine Governance to Local Authorities ... it may fall short of Licencing - but who's to say local bye-laws may not be enacted ?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Why is it such a bad thing? The real question is "Why is it necessary?" Elassar got it right with the very first response - a question you have not answered - "What is the problem you are trying to fix?"

If you really think it is a good idea to have compulsory licensing for boating, you would undoubtedly be the first to support compulsory licensing for REALLY dangerous sports - such as cycling, horse riding, skateboarding, swimming, golf. Perhaps also for rock climbing, rambling. I believe more people die from accidental poisoning each year than from boating, so perhaps we should have compulsory licensing for anyone wishing to buy dangerous household products?

Another responder with attitude !

Can I ask you a question ?

If you had a 13 yr old daughter who happened to go out on a trip in a powerboat with someone who had no experience , and perish the thought , she was killed through lack of knowledge by the driver, how would you feel then ?

Is it not at least worth it that someone in the industry makes some kind of contribution to stop this happening ?

About four or five year's ago in my neck of the woods, a young person was decapitated by a propeller.

 

[Ubergeekian]

If you had a 13 yr old daughter who happened to go out on a trip in a powerboat with someone who had no experience , and perish the thought , she was killed through lack of knowledge by the driver, how would you feel then ?

I would bitterly regret the fact that he had no experience. I would not care whether he had a licence or not.

Read the papers, man. The verges of UK roads are strewn weekly with the corpses of 15 and 16 year old girls killed by their fully legal, fully trained, fully licensed 17 year old boyfriends in their Saxos or Corsas.

 

[RIB_imposter]

.....I do not sell boats or provide instruction. I work in a marina but do come into contact with people starting sailing and motorboating for the first time.....I do not think it unreasonable that a marina operator should make sure that a new berth holder has some basic knowledge to the benefit of the rest of the inhabitants....If the Marina's Insurance made it a requirement that say a starter pack including a video/dvd should be provided I think it would be to everybody's benefit and very much welcomed by the family who are starting out.

Why do you need your insurers to make it compulsory for you to do this? I don't think anyone would say it is stupid to provide this sort of information if you have a significant number of incompetent users. However what you are now talking about is education not licensing.

I suspect that the RNLI would be happy to help - I think they have a "sea safety" pack on CD Rom or DVD? which I am sure you could get either FOC or for a tiny fraction of your marina berth fee. You just give one to everyone who signs up.

I would also suspect that if there is a sea school in (or near) the marina that there is a partnership opportunity there. e.g. you could offer 20% off an RYA course at that school when you sign up for a year's berthing AND/OR you/they could offer a discount on berthing fees for people who have completed a course with them in the last year.

You seem to be looking for the regulators to sort a problem for you when in fact the answer is in your own reach.

 

[lw395]

Hi Elessar,
One of the reasons I feel so strongly on occassions against mobos relates directly to your photo 'this is close'.

I was 'putt putting' across Lyme Bay some 3 seasons ago going West at some 5 knots, no wind, blue skies.
I was down below fixing a snack and my wife was in the cockpit. She happened to mention that a boat was behind us some 5 miles off as far as we could make out. We paid no more attention to it until it was about 5 lengths off us doing the sort of speed as suggested by your photo.
It passed us at no greater distance than you see in the photo and it was a boat of similar type and size..
The wash came into our cockpit and through our companionway soaking the nav' desk. The lunch being prepared was thrown across the galley.
My wife was momentarily terrified in the cockpit, but thankfully more shaken than stirred.
I gathered myself from the sole of the saloon and got up into the cockpit to see the offending boat, speeding off into the distance.
There was not a soul to be seen on the bridge or anywhere on the boat.
I tried to contact the boat by vhf but the name was not readable with the spray and it was by this time in the distance. I got no reply. I did not contact the coastguard but on reflection I should have done.
I can only assume that the 'driver' was 'downstairs' doing as 'Jason' suggests in another blog relating to RKJ, .....'getting a life'??
My wife was in her 'infancy' as a sailor and was nearly put off by the experience.

This could be one reason why powerboaters/mobo drivers should have a licence which they could lose for misbehaviour.??

To my mind, this is as much about autopilots as motorboaters.
When doing passages such as Lyme Bay, avoid the obvious rhumb lines...

Many very good sailors also learn just us much from friends, family and other club members as they do from formal learning. People who grow up dinghy sailing often graduate to yacht racing, becoming very skilled and competent without gaining any formal qualifications. This also applies to RIB's, in some cases. I know some teenagers who would be better to trust with 200HP than most 'powerboat 2' holders.

It is surprising that if the training is so wonderful, it does not reduce our insurance premiums very much. I've had yacht and dinghy quotes from most of the firms, and none of them has ever tried to suggest more training.
I'd like to think that this is because the extra skill implicit in my YM is offset by me doing more or 'bigger' sailing. Doing my YM did inspire me to go further afield. Perhaps the least qualified boaters go out least so are a good insurance risk?

 

[Poignard]

Replying to Long Keeler

Quote: I work in a marina but do come into contact with people starting sailing and motorboating for the first time.

I do not think it unreasonable that a marina operator should make sure that a new berth holder has some basic knowledge to the benefit of the rest of the inhabitants.

____________________________________________________________

Have you thought of putting your idea to the Managing Director of the marina you work in? I'm sure he'd be thrilled to have any suggestions that might help improve his business turnover.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Quote: I work in a marina but do come into contact with people starting sailing and motorboating for the first time.

I do not think it unreasonable that a marina operator should make sure that a new berth holder has some basic knowledge to the benefit of the rest of the inhabitants.

____________________________________________________________

Have you thought of putting your idea to the Managing Director of the marina you work in? I'm sure he'd be thrilled to have any suggestions that might help improve his business turnover.

You are quite right. Having worked in two marina's I can say that the proprietors, the one's that throw the levers ,would have no interest whatever !

This is in stark contrast to the actual people who have to run it and deal with the customers. I am very surprised that the RYA do not apply pressure in this direction. Perhaps they have.

It is very interesting, that often , those who scream for freedom the loudest , are the first to shout and holler when a newbee boater parks next to them and gives them a whack ! They usually demand instant payment and insist that the offender goes next to some other poor bugger and gets some tuition. And, blaming the operator for taking them on in the first place !

 

[Poignard]

Well I doubt people would very pleased if they went to a carpark and some jumped-up jobsworth of a parking attendant asked to inspect their driving licences before he would let them in.

Wouldn't people would feel the same way if asked to show a boating licence in a marina?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Well I doubt people would very pleased if they went to a carpark and some jumped-up jobsworth of a parking attendant asked to inspect their driving licences before he would let them in.

Wouldn't people would feel the same way if asked to show a boating licence in a marina?

They'd just go elsewhere.

 

[Searush]

Dear longkeeler, I would ask what marina you work in so that I could avoid it & it's incompetent incumbents. However, I wouldn't dream of going in a marina while I have breath in my body so I won't bother.

Seriously, NOTHING in this thread has provided any evidence for or even suggested any need for, or benefit from, the absurdity of driving licenses for boaters. The impossibility of administering or policing such a scheme would anyway make it prohibitively expensive without any impact whatsoever on any of your so called "problems".

I'm sorry to sit on the fence but there you are . . .

 

[DogWatch]

But, but, but, what about the children?

Why do all regulation debates turn into this?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

how would that have changed the outcome?

If a licensing scheme was in place when this incident occurred, how would that have changed the outcome? You couldn't read the name of the boat anyway so how would the errant skipper have been challenged/prosecuted?

Hi Observer,
In this incident possibly difficult to obtain evidence.
However, if the scene had been filmed or witnessed and the CG informed, then the fact that having licences that could be 'lost' may discourage skipper/drivers from doing such things. The boat in question was probably on autopilot and crew were below doing whatever mobos do in that circumstance, but it came to nothing in the end.....however, it could have been catastrophic though!
Licences are a sad way to go but the only reason I would wish to bring them in would be to control the few idiots that selfishly effect others, sometimes dangerously.
S.


"I'm sorry to sit on the fence but there you are . . ." Where do you do your boating where there are fences then Searush?
S.

 

[Refueler]

......
Licences are a sad way to go but the only reason I would wish to bring them in would be to control the few idiots that selfishly effect others, sometimes dangerously.
S.......

Latvia : Lielupe River - Mobo kills Fisherman in dinghy by running right over top of him at high speed.
Few days later Lielupe River, Latvian President photographed holding can of beer, driving a large Mobo - he has NO licence, contravening Latvian Law.

During this period - my boat is stopped on Ventspils River allegedly I'm drunk in charge. Latvian Authorities confiscate my Latvian Licence and I appeal, now subject to Court apperance next year ! They refuse to return Licence pending Court. But I am informed by Marine Authorities that because I have UK Licence - I am still fully entitled to exercise right to boat with my UK reg'd boat in Latvian waters.
This illustrates the difference of Boat to Car licences ... most countries do not prevent another licence being used even if you are prosecuted and lose their national licence under their own licence rules. So lose your UK licence ... come over here or to many other countries and take theirs ... go back and unless UK actually UNLIKE others includes specific clause in Licence Rules to prevent disqualified holder frtom obtaining like Car licences do ... you're OK.

What I'm trying to show is that it's not just a piece of paper - it actually needs more thought and control than that. You also have the added complexity that you can register your boat offshore and then just comply with THAT flag and return to UK waters ... boats are completely different kettle of fish to driving ... Only time you may have problem is entry to Inland Waters ... but even that's debatable.

 

[bbg]

Another responder with attitude !

Can I ask you a question ?

If you had a 13 yr old daughter who happened to go out on a trip in a powerboat with someone who had no experience , and perish the thought , she was killed through lack of knowledge by the driver, how would you feel then?

I'm sure, in your hypothetical situation, I would feel shattered. I suspect I would feel just as shattered if the driver, despite his lack of knowledge, also possessed a "licence". Although if he did have a licence it would encourage me to sue not only the driver, but also the person that awarded him the licence and the regulator that set such a low standard.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that you have not identified the problem that mandatory licensing would (according to you) fix. You have been invited to do so several times and haven't done it. I was trying to point out that, if you put this into the bigger context, there is not really a problem at all - other sports are much more dangerous and unregulated. Surely a considerably more dangerous sport like horseriding should be regulated before boating.
First step is to identify, precisely, the problem. Is it death? Injury? Damage to property?
Second step is to determine the cause or causes of the problem.
Next step is to identify a solution to eliminate or reduce the causes or the consequences.

You seem to have jumped from a very vaguely identified problem (poor boat handling skills for newbies) to a proposed solution (mandatory training and licensing) that ASSUMES it will address the problem.

The issue that I have with this (and I suspect most people have with this) is twofold. First, it is doubtful that mandatory licensing in and of itself will reduce poor boat handling. Either the bar for passing is set so low as to be meaningless, or (together with real training) set to a meaningful level, but so high that it discourages most people from getting involved.
Second, I think most of us like the idea of living in a free society, in which we are free to do as we please, within certain social and criminal limits. Your approach represents another nail in the coffin of that ideal, and would turn us more towards a society in which we are only allowed to do what the state says we are allowed to do.

 

[Poignard]

Replying to bbq

Second, I think most of us like the idea of living in a free society, in which we are free to do as we please, within certain social and criminal limits. Your approach represents another nail in the coffin of that ideal, and would turn us more towards a society in which we are only allowed to do what the state says we are allowed to do.

________________________________________________________

Absolutely agree with your sentiments. Well said.

However I think it would be more accurate to replace "most of us" with "there are still a few of us who"

 

[Refueler]

I'm a great believer in freedom of individual and allowance to go about business without unnecessary hindrance.

But I also sit in the camp of if Licences be decided on that they should be set sensibly BEFORE it gets set by some twatty spotty jobsworth who has no idea of reality.

We have Driving licence for cars, separate for Trucks, planes etc. In fact nearly all forms of transport except pleasure boats !
Maybe it's because we have RYA offering voluntary ? Possibly, but I don't think that is whole reason. I think it's just passed by and not hit some jobsworths desk yet.

I live and work in Latvia as an Expat ... and I need to produce a piece of paper to get by their Inland waters rules ... the ICC does that fully. What liberty or freedom did I lose in getting it ? What I gained actually is freedom to navigate more of latvia's waters than those without any paper on UK flag boat. You may have commity etc. and can tie up in latvian Yacht Club such as Ventspils etc. - but that's it. Put your tender down and proceed up river past sea/inland limit and you are now subject to strict Latvian law about having licence to do so. Now you can see that failure to HAVE the paper is creating loss of freedom to boat !

Thought I'd post to show it works both ways and how ridiculous some of the arguments and the whole situation is ...

[edit] I forgot to mention ... has anyone gone BWA in UK recently ? Do you have free access without documentation or rules to Inland waters of UK ? [/edit]

 

[snowleopard]

[edit] I forgot to mention ... has anyone gone BWA in UK recently ? Do you have free access without documentation or rules to Inland waters of UK ? [/edit]

AFAIK there are no requirements for operators of boats on British inland waterways to have any form of documentation as far as their competence is concerned. There are of course some quite strict rules about the boats, designed to prevent damage to the waterways and other users.

Now some questions for those who go boating in countries with compulsory competency certificates - how are things like kids mucking about in dinghies handled? I presume there is some threshold for exemption? On the scale from a beach inflatable up to a power boat with 200hp on the back or a 40 foot sailing boat, at what point does certification become necessary.

Second question - how is certification policed at sea? and are there still some who just ignore the authorities and jump in a boat without the paperwork?

 

[fisherman]

Second question - how is certification policed at sea? and are there still some who just ignore the authorities and jump in a boat without the paperwork?

As I suggested earlier, you will simply be uninsured, once the companies latch onto it. (As I am if I have no MCA certificate. There is no other policing.)

I lean towards the need for some sort of qualification. It's interesting how vehement some are about it.
Did anyone hear the radio last night about the introduction of seat belts, and the desperate and outlandish excuses for opposing them, even from the RAC.
Given that you can jump in a boat and go and play around in the Solent, or among big ships at sea I think there's a place for it.

 

[flaming]

Wading into this one late, but here's my take on it.

I used to be very anti liscencing, the argument that any test will have to be way below Day Skipper level to be all encompassing, and that the mentality of "I have the liscence, therefore I am safe" would, I think, be very accurate.

However, the more I am exposed to the decisions of government, the more I think it is sadly inevitable. This is not to say that I am in favour of it, far from it, but I am a realist.

Therefore I would like to see the marine industry take the lead, and come up with a workable solution before an unworkable bit of **** is foisted on us.