Driving Licence for a boat - What's wrong with that ?

[LONG_KEELER]

Many thanks to everyone who expressed a view.

Very interesting to hear everybody thoughts and ideas.

Personal view of course, but no one has convinced me that things should stay as they are. It seems that a large part of the civilised world feel the same way too.

Pity that so many contributors cannot enter into the spirit of something like this but respond in a personal way. But that's the way it seems these days.

 

[Litotes]

The coastline of Great Britain (the mainland) is just a shade over eleven thousand miles. Adding the main islands gives another eight thousand. What sort of enforcement exercise do you think it would be to make sure that every boat being sailed along nineteen thousand miles of coast has an appropriately qualified person in charge?

I think the purpose of licensing is not so much to ensure competence as to create a sanction against incompetence - i.e. the possibility of having the license revoked. Thus, the authorities would only start to take an interest if something goes wrong.

We have seen an awful lot of ill thought out, knee jerk legislation in the last 10 years - much of it ineffective at best, ridiculous at worst and often dogged by unintended and unhelpful consequences. A huge waste of money.

Given the number of boats on the water, I think the number of serious accidents is relatively low and statistically, sailing is a surprisingly safe activity by comparison with many other sports and pastimes. So the mighty, and hugely expensive, project of setting up compulsory training and licensing looks like taking a very big sledgehammer to a very small nut. Bearing in mind that no convincing evidence has been brought forward (as far as I know) to validate the assumption that the sledgehammer would, in any case, have any effect on the nut whatsoever, it doesn't sound like a very sensible enterprise to me.

 

[bbg]

Personal view of course, but no one has convinced me that things should stay as they are.

You're the one who wants to change the status quo. It is not up to those who want to keep it to convince those who want to change it. It is up to you to come up with a compelling reason to change the status quo. You haven't even tried to do so.

 

[Refueler]

I've already shown how revocation of UK licence would be ineffective, unless the law was written to take account of issue of foreign licence etc.

You have a UK SSR reg'd boat, new law says you need a licence to operate in UK waters ... you get caught and Licence suspended / revoked. You toddle of to another land .. ie Latvia and register the boat ... you take Latvian licence ... toddle back to UK ... Job done.

Only if law specifically bans YOU personally as it does with Car Driving Licence and NOT the Licence would it work.

But yes I agree that idea is to have a sanction that can be used when caught rather than check everyone has a paper.

I don't want freedom curtailed - but again - I've shown circunstances where lack of licence actually curtails your freedom ....

 

[Litotes]

I've already shown how revocation of UK licence would be ineffective, unless the law was written to take account of issue of foreign licence etc.

Well, as I mentioned, much of the knee jerk legislation to which we have been subjected is ineffective. I have no doubt this would be too.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

You're the one who wants to change the status quo. It is not up to those who want to keep it to convince those who want to change it. It is up to you to come up with a compelling reason to change the status quo. You haven't even tried to do so.

Do I have to ? I could take the view that you have failed to come up with compelling reasons not to do so.

Surely we are all now a little wiser, and richer, on how sailing and motorboaters feel about licensing. This is the great thing about forums .

Following on from what many people have said. I think it would be a good idea if we take the initiative now and introduce a basic workable scheme designed by sailors before it is forced upon us.

 

[Elessar]

It is officially assumed that sailors will have acquired the basic skills.

The French. You do have to laugh.

 

[Litotes]

Do I have to ? I could take the view that you have failed to come up with compelling reasons not to do so.

You could, but legislation involving very significant trouble and expense to a very great number of people and based on nothing more substantial than "it seems like a good idea" is really not a good idea at all. I would venture to suggest that unless two conditions can be met it is a very bad idea indeed.

Is there good reason to believe the legislation would have the intended effect?
Is there good reason to believe that the benefits would be worth the cost?

 

[Litotes]

The French. You do have to laugh.

What rubbish.

 

[Elessar]

What rubbish.

to be clear - the French registration system or my comment?

 

[Observer]

Following on from what many people have said. I think it would be a good idea if we take the initiative now and introduce a basic workable scheme designed by sailors before it is forced upon us.

You've been unable to show that a licensing scheme is "necessary" for safety reasons nor how such a scheme would work nor (more importantly) why, in practice, it would have any beneficial outcomes. Nevertheless, you're now suggesting it may be "a good idea" to invent and implement one anyway as a pre-emptive measure in case our regulators decide at some time later to impose something that's less palatable.

Who do you think should lead this - the RYA? That's wont get far. The RYA is not a law-making body.

You have to decide what you're advocating - a mandatory licensing scheme and associated enforcement mechanisms (which would require primary legislation) or a voluntary scheme. Well, there's not much point in voluntary licensing and we already have a voluntary training scheme.

I don't seek to be insulting but your thinking on this is, to say the least, muddled.

 

[Tranona]

Personal view of course, but no one has convinced me that things should stay as they are. It seems that a large part of the civilised world feel the same way too.

QUOTE]

I assume by this you mean that other countries have licences. That does not make it right or desirable. as many posts have said these requirements are either laughably basic, ignored or ineffective. Not a good basis for taking the moral high ground.

As others have said there is no case for licencing on safety grounds, nor any political pressure that has not already been dealt with.

You see it from the perspective of a small number of people being poor at basic boat handling skills. Much of this is down to many boats being poor at close quarters maneouvering and marinas designed to cram boats in with little thought about safe maneouvering - particularly those in tidal streams.

i cannot understand why you think "we" by which I assume you mean existing yachstmen should propose licencing. The major representative bodies and the bodies responsible for maritime safety are not in favour and they reflect in general the majority view.

So I guess that puts you in an unrepresentative minority.

This is not intended as a personal criticism - many of us sit at times in a minority position - for example I would like to see sales of 4*4s restricted to those who can clearly demonstrate that they need such a vehicle because of what they do for a living or where they live. Sales would fall to about 5% of the current level. However, one has to accept that such a proposal offends personal freedom and choice, which is still highly valued around here - so I shut up.

 

[flaming]

Personal view of course, but no one has convinced me that things should stay as they are. It seems that a large part of the civilised world feel the same way too.

QUOTE]

I assume by this you mean that other countries have licences. That does not make it right or desirable. as many posts have said these requirements are either laughably basic, ignored or ineffective. Not a good basis for taking the moral high ground.

As others have said there is no case for licencing on safety grounds, nor any political pressure that has not already been dealt with.

You see it from the perspective of a small number of people being poor at basic boat handling skills. Much of this is down to many boats being poor at close quarters maneouvering and marinas designed to cram boats in with little thought about safe maneouvering - particularly those in tidal streams.

i cannot understand why you think "we" by which I assume you mean existing yachstmen should propose licencing. The major representative bodies and the bodies responsible for maritime safety are not in favour and they reflect in general the majority view.

So I guess that puts you in an unrepresentative minority.

This is not intended as a personal criticism - many of us sit at times in a minority position - for example I would like to see sales of 4*4s restricted to those who can clearly demonstrate that they need such a vehicle because of what they do for a living or where they live. Sales would fall to about 5% of the current level. However, one has to accept that such a proposal offends personal freedom and choice, which is still highly valued around here - so I shut up.

I basically agree with you, liscencing solves nothing and do not wish to see it.

However, I think it will, eventually, become inevitable when the politicians get bored of arguing over the NHS, and all it will take is one bad newsworthy accident to prompt some awful knee-jerk legislation.

When that happens I would far rather see a scheme designed by "boaters" and having some merit than one foisted on us from on high! So discussions on how a scheme might work seem sensible to me.

 

[Litotes]

to be clear - the French registration system or my comment?

Your comment.

 

[Tranona]

When that happens I would far rather see a scheme designed by "boaters" and having some merit than one foisted on us from on high! So discussions on how a scheme might work seem sensible to me.

I don't agree about the inevitability. The history of the current RYA schemes is that they came about in response to political pressures to extend formal traing to leisure sailors and the RYA got the job. So far they have been able to convince the powers that the current methods are successful. I guess if there is a "something must be done" situation then govt would ask appropriate parties such as RYA, RNLI, MCA, DfT to propose a system.

As I noted in an earlier post the requirements for an ICC are not too different from a day skipper, so in effect a minimum test requirement already exists.

 

[maxi77]

I basically agree with you, liscencing solves nothing and do not wish to see it.

However, I think it will, eventually, become inevitable when the politicians get bored of arguing over the NHS, and all it will take is one bad newsworthy accident to prompt some awful knee-jerk legislation.

When that happens I would far rather see a scheme designed by "boaters" and having some merit than one foisted on us from on high! So discussions on how a scheme might work seem sensible to me.

I do think there are some possible benefits, firstly all at sea so as to speak will have a basic level of knowledge which may well be an overall benefit, and also if some one has a licence, it can be taken away.

The big down side is enforcement. If any scheme is not properly enforced then you might as well do without it. Enforcement through insurance is a non starter because most of the people you really need to impact wont bother with such niceties. Thus we will need effective on the water enforcement, that will be expensive, and will have to be paid for I suspect partly through the licence fee, so your licence wont be cheap, and partly through fines for the enforcers, so expect the water borne equivalent of parking enforcers.

On balance I think the benefit from licencing would be wholly destroyed by the effects of enforcement, though having licences without enforcement would be as I said wholly pointless.

 

[Ubergeekian]

And as I've said, the insurance companies will do it for them. There is no enforcement of the MCA cert for fishing vessels, or none that I've experienced, except that it is a condition of insurance cover. When there is an incident it's the first thing the MCA and the insurance company will ask for.

I was asked for proof of insurance before entering the local boatyard, and before mooring in the local fishing port. If the insurance is dependent on any other paperwork (cert of competence or whatever) they will want to see that also.

Wouldn't work. For a start, I'll comfortably predict that the overwhelming majority of boats in the UK aren't insured, and wouldn't be insured unless you made in compulsory, in which case you have precisely the same regulation problem again. Remember that even with legal compulsion and swingeing penalties, at least 10% of cars on the road aren't insured.

Secondly, your car like model falls down because a car is driven by one person and a boat by many or none. Who would you envisage as needing a licence: the skipper? the helmsman? the navigator (who entered the course into the autopilot)? Would you need a licenced person for every watch, or just on board? What would happen if the licenced person became ill and incapacitated mid-channel?

Above all ... why don't insurance companies insist on it now?

 

[Ubergeekian]

I think the purpose of licensing is not so much to ensure competence as to create a sanction against incompetence - i.e. the possibility of having the license revoked. Thus, the authorities would only start to take an interest if something goes wrong.

What would the sanction be, though? If at least one of my crew had the licence, would we be OK? Would I be forbidden from touching the helm or trimming the sails?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Do I have to ? I could take the view that you have failed to come up with compelling reasons not to do so.

Yes, you do have to. You're the one demanding a change, you're the one who has to justify the change. Next, my campaign to force all boat owners to wear purple underpants at all times. Can you come up with any reason against that?

Following on from what many people have said. I think it would be a good idea if we take the initiative now and introduce a basic workable scheme designed by sailors before it is forced upon us.

Such a system would be completely pointless without enforcement. Who do you think would enforce it?

 

[Litotes]

What would the sanction be, though? If at least one of my crew had the licence, would we be OK? Would I be forbidden from touching the helm or trimming the sails?

Don't ask me. Ask someone who thinks it's a good idea.