Dragging of anchors

[Neeves]

Many of us have owned both old style anchors, CQR, Bruce and Delta, and have invested in more modern interpretations, Rocna, Vulcan, Knox, Excel, SARCA, Mantus, Spade - sorry if I missed any. I'm not sure where to place Fortress, its performance when used appropriately makes it modern, its inception was over 25 years ago. (but then so are Spade and SARCA)

Those that have invested in the more modern versions did so, not out of desire to support an anchor maker, but to reduce or remove the incidence of dragging. People wanted certainty, or greater certainty.

I wondered if owners of these modern versions might like to comment on whether their aspirations have been met - have the new designs reduced the risk of dragging or have they actually removed dragging completely.

To minimise any thread drift to, 'my modern anchor is better than any other modern anchor', there is no need to mention design or model - just that you have a modern anchor (weight would be interesting) and it has never dragged (compared with 3 times a year with the old model of weight 'Y' - no need to mention make) and its used on a yacht, of whatever length, interesting to quote length.

If you have dragged with a modern anchor - there might be mitigating circumstances - which you might like to describe.

We used to drag regularly with a brand name articulated plough, oddly we would drag under the most benign conditions and equally oddly it would hold in conditions when we thought it would definitely drag. It weighed in at around 20kg and we used it on our 38' cat. We use lots of different anchors but regularly use one specific 15kg model (we have tested most of the models, around 15kgs, mentioned, and some more). We have dragged 2 times, once it caught something in the toe and dragged with winds of 30 knots and second time we were anchored in thin slime (mud) in a river and dragged slowly in 55 knots, the anchor seemed to 'hold' in that we did not accelerate but did move aft in a controlled manner. Having moved 20m and into shallower water the anchor suddenly locked up and we did not move further, I assume the anchor found a firmer substrate. In both cases we had plenty of chain deployed, 8mm - scope was not an issue.

I do not see how we could have anticipated catching something in the toe, just bad luck. Few anchors work in thin slime/mud - now we would use a fluke anchor as they seem the only reliable option.

Anticipating the results, I expect modern designs to enjoy wholehearted support - but wonder how much is due to people moving up in size and wondering if modern anchors have any weaknesses. Are they infallible?

Jonathan

 

[duncan99210]

We used to have a 44lb anchor which regularly refused to set properly and often dragged in high winds. We now have a 20 kg modern anchor which routinely sets well and once set doesn't budge. Only occasions we've had problems has been down to weed or a thin substrate over rock. Wouldn't go back to the old anchor.

 

[KellysEye]

One thing I forgot to mention is that one cause of dragging is the very high snatch loads in strong winds. I've seen 400+ boats in six an half years in the Caribbean anchored in strong winds and they were all swinging 90 degrees and their anchor chains were taught which risks dragging. We never did that because we flew a triangular riding sail clipped on our mizzen topping lift with the pointy bit tied to the mizzen, mast. It cuts the swinging to maximum 20 degrees and we never had a taught chain. A sloop can clip the riding saail to the backstay and tie the pointy bit to a port or starboard stanchion. I strongly recommend it. If you want to see what they are like http://www.sailrite.com/Anchor-Riding-Sail-Kit-12-5-Sq-Feet this if for a 35 foot boat but the is no reason you can't make a bigger one or get a sailmaker to do it.

 

[GHA]

and wondering if modern anchors have any weaknesses. Are they infallible?

Nothing is infallible in this universe

On changing from a cqr to rocna the difference was very obvious. Digs in instantly and will be fine if left to it's own to reset.

It can sometimes be made to drag a little in very soft mud with full sustained reverse.

 

[stu9000]

Not sure how this discussion works with just the term "modern" to use although I understand the desire not tongo down a "mine is best" route. I assume modern means an anchor that uses shape far more than weight to set. But there must bne wide variances between designs. My favourite for the east coast mud would be Bruce. Amazinfly good even when used with mostly rope. I am not tempted by newer designs.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Nothing is infallible in this universe.

I couldn't agree more .
At the end of the day there is more chance of staying put as long as let out enough scope and set the anchor .
We have a NG anchor 20 kg and this year it wouldn't set twice ,
both time it felt ok until we slowly increase the power and away we went , once there was a fishing net with two metal bars and another time it came up with a ball of weed .
But has a rule once set , it stay put .
It would be interesting to hear from owners who ended up on the beach and others who boats sunk this year in Paxoi and Corfu why they anchors never held .

 

[Neeves]

I couldn't agree more .
At the end of the day there is more chance of staying put as long as let out enough scope and set the anchor .
We have a NG anchor 20 kg and this year it wouldn't set twice ,
both time it felt ok until we slowly increase the power and away we went , once there was a fishing net with two metal bars and another time it came up with a ball of weed .
But has a rule once set , it stay put .
It would be interesting to hear from owners who ended up on the beach and others who boats sunk this year in Paxoi and Corfu why they anchors never held .

Thank you for the replies.

I shied away from NG as it was described of designs, or a design, developed 2000 to 2005 ish and we now have the Vulcan, Scoop and Knox - hence 'Modern' (with the break between Delta and Spade).

I'd even accept as useful, in the absence of personal experience, anecdotal background.

Jonathan

 

[Vegable]

My boat is in the NW of Scotland and have sailed up there since 1993. All our stops were using an anchor and it wasn't until 2008 that I first went into a marina. Back then we had a 35lb genuine plough anchor on 31foot ketch and frequently had to reset, especially in places like Canna and (south) Rona, and occaisionally even in the sand at the outer entrance to Arisaig harbour. We now have a 38 foot boat with a modern anchor, the modern anchor is just 2 seasons old. The new boat came with a 45lb plough type and gave me a lot of trouble in setting. With the modern anchor (20kg, one size up from that recomended) I've had no trouble in setting it apart from once this summer in Rona where I couldn't get it to set (in the bay port side of the pier) and had to anchor elsewhere in the anchorage. Rona is notorious for its soft, thin, well ploughed mud, Canna for its thick kelp.
I wouldn't change back to the plough types at all, but I do keep it on board as a spare.
Mike

 

[pmagowan]

I have moved from articulated copy plough to roll bar NG. The plough was heavy, hard to handle and didn't sit in the bow roller. It was a bit pernickety to set but once set tended to do ok. No dragging as such but maybe a slow and intermittent drift in bad conditions with a concern at turns of tide. The NG has set almost instantly on every occasion with a certain 'thud'. There is no concern on turn of tide. If it fails it fails on deployment and you need to try again. this is normally due to weed on the tip stopping it going in properly. This has happened twice in trick anchorages but second deployment has been perfect. It has sat me through some gales as all around dragged. I always use a snubber.

 

[RivalRedwing]

I've never regretted moving from a CQR to a modern type, the additional effort required to extract a modern anchor from the East Coast mud confirms its holding power when compared to a CQR. I also see it as a key safety feature - if I need to deploy an anchor quickly in an emergency I want to know that it has a good chance of holding.

 

[NormanS]

I've been anchoring with many varieties of anchors for more years than I care to remember. My opinion is that the type of seabed is far more important for good anchoring, than the particular design of hook.

 

[Neeves]

I've been anchoring with many varieties of anchors for more years than I care to remember. My opinion is that the type of seabed is far more important for good anchoring, than the particular design of hook.

I do not argue - I advocate carrying a quiver of anchors (all of a size to be a primary) but can you elaborate, or how many anchors do you carry, what designs and why so many, or why (considering your comment) so few.

For a long cruise we would carry a, alloy fluke, a convex and a concave.

Jonathan

 

[LadyInBed]

It would be a bit meaningless to reply without stating anchor type. Over the years, I've dragged a few times!
First was in Lulworth cove and was down to inexperience. I decided to go just inside the enterance on the East side, now anyone who knows the cove knows that there is thick kelp bed in that area and I was on a Bruce which was totally inappropriate for that bottom, it would have been fine in the middle of the cove in the sand.
Then for about sixteen years I used a genuine CQR without a problem, but it was a large anchor, appropriate to a 33ft boat on a 22ft boat.
In 2000 I changed to a 33ft boat that came with a Delta of rated size for a 33ft boat and a large Danforth. I dragged three times on the Delta, once in Studland which I put down to too little scope and twice in the West end of South Deep where the bottom is oozy black mud. On switching to the Danforth, the boat then held ok, so that was a case of horses for courses.
I've not been happy with the Delta size, as my boat has a lot of windage, so about four years ago I changed to the next size up of Delta which I've had no problems with.

A slight side issue is that lots of people say that they can't sleep well when on hook. The solution is IMO the anchor watch app on a mobile phone.

 

[Neeves]

I agree with that last comment -chart plotters have migrated to the cockpit and helm (muffled and sometimes a long way from berths) and many people do not have repeaters down below. Additionally alarms on modern chartplotters are pretty unobtrusive. An app is one mechanism, we wired a piezo electric alarm to the plotter - its enough to waken the dead and was a very simply and cheap fix, maybe stg5 and a couple of hours threading the wires. Some people cruise where mobile phone coverage is less than reliable (and I confess my phone, is well, just a phone - but was bought for its exceptional coverage)

Jonathan

 

[[3889]]

I changed from a 16kg Brittany to a 15kg Manson. The most noticeable difference is the speed of setting and the fewer attempts needed to set. The Manson has dragged once in heavy weed. I'm glad I made the change.

 

[NormanS]

I do not argue - I advocate carrying a quiver of anchors (all of a size to be a primary) but can you elaborate, or how many anchors do you carry, what designs and why so many, or why (considering your comment) so few.

For a long cruise we would carry a, alloy fluke, a convex and a concave.

Jonathan

My present boat is a 36ft ketch with a designed displacement of 8.5 tons, although with the amount of "stuff" that we choose to carry around, I'm sure it is considerably more than that.

My main everyday anchor is a 20kg Bruce on 10mm chain. I also have a Fortress FX23, which is of roughly the same dimensions as the 20kg Danforth, which it replaced. I also have a 20kg. Fisherman. The latter two, when used have a mixed rode of chain / nylon. I also have a 4.5lb Danforth, which is primarily for the dinghy, but has been used with surprising effect as a temporary kedge.

Probably the most useful anchoring tool in my box is my fishfinder. This normally makes sure that I can select a clean patch, clear of weed.

However, (Confessional time) none of us is infallible, just last week, we dragged out of Scalasaig, Colonsay, about midnight, on a dirty windy night. It was really unexpected, as I had pulled back hard on the anchor. When it came up there was a huge haystack of kelp on it, but I suspect it was harvesting while dragging. Anyway, we went down to Oronsay to a far superior anchorage, and an undisturbed night. I always say that anchoring is an inexact science.

 

[Trident]

I've had a Rocna for 2 years now and done maybe 500 nights at anchor in all conditions from the UK down the Atlantic coast of Europe to the Med and so far it has not dragged once and only failed to set first time once. It is 25kg (15kg is recommended for my boat) and all chain rode. Meanwhile our sometimes cruising companions in the same boat who shared many of the same anchorages right next to us in the same conditions as we travelled together had a CQR and a spade type - they often took several goes to set each time and dragged half a dozen times in conditions where we didn't move an inch.

 

[Neeves]

Norman,

A theme that might develop is that no anchor performs very well in weed, weather its modern, or pre-modernism. You carry a Fishermans, whose attribute or strength is meant to be its ability to penetrate in weed - yet when at midnight you had an issue with weed you did not use it. Why carry it?

We have balked against carrying one, heavy for what they are and single seabed application.

Just wondering - no criticism intended.

 

[Neeves]

I've had a Rocna for 2 years now and done maybe 500 nights at anchor in all conditions from the UK down the Atlantic coast of Europe to the Med and so far it has not dragged once and only failed to set first time once. It is 25kg (15kg is recommended for my boat) and all chain rode. Meanwhile our sometimes cruising companions in the same boat who shared many of the same anchorages right next to us in the same conditions as we travelled together had a CQR and a spade type - they often took several goes to set each time and dragged half a dozen times in conditions where we didn't move an inch.

I'm breaking my own rule - what's a spade type when its not a Spade? Did they have twin bow rollers or did they switch from CQR to spade (type)

Jonathan

edit I only ask as the only spade types I can think of would be Ultra (which I omitted, by mistake) a Vulcan and of course the Spade itself. User comment on the Vulcan are slim, its a bit new, but comment on Ultras and Spades would normally be positive.

 

[NormanS]

Norman,

A theme that might develop is that no anchor performs very well in weed, weather its modern, or pre-modernism. You carry a Fishermans, whose attribute or strength is meant to be its ability to penetrate in weed - yet when at midnight you had an issue with weed you did not use it. Why carry it?

We have balked against carrying one, heavy for what they are and single seabed application.

Just wondering - no criticism intended.

I refer you back to my previous post. My issue was probably not initially with weed. The weed was only apparent after we had dragged for a considerable distance. When I realised that we were dragging, I first made sure that we were in no immediate danger, and that gave us time to get dressed in oilskins etc. Meanwhile we were slowly dragging a huge ball of weed along the bottom. From the fishfinder, there didn't appear to be significant weed where we anchored, or I wouldn't have anchored there in the first place. Maybe I was wrong in my reading of the fishfinder, or maybe I was just unlucky. I don't know, and I'm not complaining. It's all part of the challenge of yacht cruising.