Double End Yachts?

[Tim Good]

I've never actually sailed one but all the ones I have seen look excellent and very sea worthy. Other than the advantages of running before a big sea what else makes double ended boats especially sea worthy?

Also I'd really like to hear some other example I can look up. Here's a couple to get your started:

North Sea 127
PanOceanic 46

 

[TimBennet]

I've never actually sailed one but all the ones I have seen look excellent and very sea worthy. Other than the advantages of running before a big sea what else makes double ended boats especially sea worthy?

Also I'd really like to hear some other example I can look up. Here's a couple to get your started:

North Sea 127
PanOceanic 46

There's no evidence that the pointy stern does anything for seakeeping.
It's purely sylistic. If you like the look - buy one. If you don't - avoid them.

 

[Salty John]

They make for a cramped cockpit. And the 'parting the seas' thing is greatly overdone - all boats are double-enders below the waterline.

The Hans Christian traditional range, and the Tayana 37 spring to mind.

 

[jerrytug]

I've never actually sailed one but all the ones I have seen look excellent and very sea worthy. Other than the advantages of running before a big sea what else makes double ended boats especially sea worthy?

Also I'd really like to hear some other example I can look up. Here's a couple to get your started:

North Sea 127
PanOceanic 46

They certainly appear to be massively lacking in buoyancy at the stern where heavy machinery and crew hang out.
Also lacking in stowage relative to the LOA,and small triangular cockpits and aft decks.
I am thinking of the little Victorias etc not massive Colin Archer ketches obviously,they are deceptively pretty though.
So I think the answer to your question is,nothing! Happy to be contradicted,and I have seen one or two tiny Victorias in the Azores,so they do get about. Cheers Jerry.

 

[Blueboatman]

Yup I have sailed one across Biscay in a breeze. With wooden boats it makes the stern as strong and seaworthy as the bow, structurally. And you get a good strong attachment for the rudder. Once upon a time these things were seen as important.

Edit: It is easy to make a very undistorted hull shape for a kindly motion too. Lack of bouyancy in a double ender? Haven't heard that one b4 as a complete NoNo

Lots of HansChristian and other GRP Taiwan takeaways cruising yachts with double ends were sold into the US, but tastes change and where do you put the two double aft cabins?

 

[JumbleDuck]

They certainly appear to be massively lacking in buoyancy at the stern where heavy machinery and crew hang out.
Also lacking in stowage relative to the LOA,and small triangular cockpits and aft decks.
I am thinking of the little Victorias etc not massive Colin Archer ketches obviously,they are deceptively pretty though.

Lack of buoyancy at the stern is adequately compensated for by lack of boat at the stern. You are quite right that you lose the possibility of a big stern locker, but then so you do in a modern square-arsed boat with a folding transom above and two double cabins squeezed in below. Ultimately the choice between a double ender and an ugly boat (I may be a little biassed) is almost entirely aesthetic.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... You are quite right that you lose the possibility of a big stern locker, but then so you do in a modern square-arsed boat with a folding transom above and two double cabins squeezed in below.

"Modern square-arsed" yachts not only have two aft cabins, but they usually have a huge under deck lazzarete as well (above your feet in the bun in shorter yachts), in addition to the extremely useful folding transom. There are just some things that are better in modern designs.

 

[TQA]

Bob Perry liked a well rounded stern. Valiants Babas and a variety of Chinese takeaways not all which paid him any royalties [ it is alleged anyway ]

 

[JumbleDuck]

"Modern square-arsed" yachts not only have two aft cabins, but they usually have a huge under deck lazzarete as well (above your feet in the bun in shorter yachts), in addition to the extremely useful folding transom. There are just some things that are better in modern designs.

Pity they're so damned ugly.

There is also size to consider ... the starting size for new boats nowadays is generally 33 - 36', so whatever sort of bum they have there is always going to be more room than in a typical 26 - 28' foot equivalent. As I said, it's an aesthetic choice more than anything.

 

[JomsViking]

If not designed very carefully double enders (or spidsgatter as we call them in Scandinavia) may lack bouyancy, so well known here. Perry used a lot of time (according to himself in "Perry on Yacht Design) on getting the stern "fat" enough when designing the Valiant (and other Double Enders). Even think he admitted to a lot of inspiration from K. Aage Nielsen's designs.
They also squat a lot under power (Again some more than others).

 

[Orla]

I've lived in & sailed one for the last seven years, a bob perry Lafitte44.
Massive Lazerette, and one of the most comfortable and safe cockpits I have ever been in. No issues with bouyancy.
Some info on them on my site below

 

[dylanwinter]

katie L

I love mine

as far as I can see more bouancy. Katie L is really a boat that would stop at the point where the outboard well starts - maybe a 21 footer as opposed to her real length of 23 foot

so get more boyancy - but a longer boat

cockpit is well over six foot

I cannot drop the outboard over the stern as I have it in a well

she is very kind to me in all sea states encountered so far

it has been said that any fool can design a good bow

it takes some skill to design a good stern

few snaps here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/galleries/katie-l-images-for-pbo/

tell me if she has a prettier arse than an eboat or sonata

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Saltram

 

[Pye_End]

Perhaps better balanced when they heel - no big changes in centers of buoyancy so less weather helm.

I don't find lack of buoyancy an issue, although she may pitch a more than a sugar scoop, which probably adversely effects the speed.

Pretty.

 

[mjcoon]

There's no evidence that the pointy stern does anything for seakeeping.
It's purely sylistic. If you like the look - buy one. If you don't - avoid them.

I thought it was because the nearer to symmetry between frnt and back is that when heeling you still have immersed symmetry and thus less tendency to round up due to that cause (though there are still other causes).

So not really about seakeeping but not just stylistic either.

Mike.

 

[Pye_End]

I thought it was because the nearer to symmetry between frnt and back is that when heeling you still have immersed symmetry and thus less tendency to round up due to that cause (though there are still other causes).

So not really about seakeeping but not just stylistic either.

Mike.

For sea keeping I believe the usual quoted advantage is in a following sea, and the double ender is supposed to have less tendency to encourage a breaking sea developing and being dumped in the cockpit, though I agree with your comment as an distinct advantage.

 

[TimBennet]

I thought it was because the nearer to symmetry between frnt and back is that when heeling you still have immersed symmetry and thus less tendency to round up due to that cause (though there are still other causes).

So not really about seakeeping but not just stylistic either.

Mike.

The greatest exponent of balance between each end when heeled was Harrison Butler who used Admiral Turner's Metacentric Analysis to fine tune all his later designs. All the designs (except 1, IIRC) that he achieved this way were transom sterned boats. He could find no advantage of drawing double ended with their additional cost of building (in wood).

Bob Perry was always clear that his double enders weren't true double enders, in the style of Archer or Atkins. He always ensured they had the same aft sections as a conventional transom or counter yacht, but with the above waterline bits rounded off into a pointy end. He freely admits this was a cynical moved to capitalise on the west coast USA's afinity for the double ended as seen in their love of the Westsail 32's etc and their outdated and unproven claim for enhanced seakeeping qualities in a following sea.

 

[Tranona]

Not all double ended boats are the same - the US designs are nothing like the traditional Colin Archer and derivatives. If you look at the underwater shape of the Perry designed boats (and the Brewer designed Panoceanic) you will find lines that could be just as easily those of a transom or counter sterned boat - just that the bit above the water is rounded for stylistic reasons. You will find the marketing speak on those types of boats tended to draw comparison with old North Sea and Scandinavian boats implying they are more seaworthy than other designs. Other double enders have different hull forms where the objective is to produce a more balanced heeled waterline - good discussion in one of Maurice Griffiths books on the pros and cons related to boats of that type he designed.

As already mentioned one of the attractions with wood build was inherent strength of the form when built in that material - not relevant with other materials. On modern boats one of the downsides is lack of deck and cockpit space, but this becomes less important once you get over 40' or so. Still presents a problem though for many cruisers because the back end gets very cluttered with vane steering, radar posts, solar panels, boarding ladders, liferafts etc. You only have to look at Nigel Calders Pacific Seacraft 40 to understand the problem - and perhaps why he changed it very quickly for a transom sterned boat!

 

[Sybarite]

Yup I have sailed one across Biscay in a breeze. With wooden boats it makes the stern as strong and seaworthy as the bow, structurally. And you get a good strong attachment for the rudder. Once upon a time these things were seen as important.

Edit: It is easy to make a very undistorted hull shape for a kindly motion too. Lack of bouyancy in a double ender? Haven't heard that one b4 as a complete NoNo

Lots of HansChristian and other GRP Taiwan takeaways cruising yachts with double ends were sold into the US, but tastes change and where do you put the two double aft cabins?

One of France's leading architects, Michel Joubert, built himself a 53' double ender, twin keel Strongall boat.

However, the last time I saw his boat he had converted it to a virtually square stern. I believe that this was maybe because he has twin 110hp engines and the pointy stern was not sufficiently buoyant to stop being drawn down under power.

 

[JumbleDuck]

For sea keeping I believe the usual quoted advantage is in a following sea, and the double ender is supposed to have less tendency to encourage a breaking sea developing and being dumped in the cockpit, though I agree with your comment as an distinct advantage.

I have certainly found the ride in my double ender to be agreeably comfortable in a following sea. However, I haven't sailed enough one-pointy-end-and-one-blunt-enders of the same size to know if there's a difference.