Don't put trust in your AIS

[newtothis]

Sanction the lot. I’m in trouble if I buy stolen goods, so why not them?

Because shipping is a little more complicated than picking up a t.v. from a guy in the pub carpark.
I'm not saying it's right the way it is. But it is the way it is.

 

[Daydream believer]

Because shipping is a little more complicated than picking up a t.v. from a guy in the pub carpark.
I'm not saying it's right the way it is. But it is the way it is.

I had a friend who was shipping some goods in a special deal. The ship decided that it would have engine problems -conveniently, at Xmas- & needed to make an unscheduled stop. As a result it was a week late. My friend found that he had 2 male guests of, shall we say, "foreign origin" for Xmas, that he did not expect. He sent his wife & son to stay with relatives. Shipping & what gets "shipped" can be rather interesting.

 

[[2574]]

What percentage of small vessels have radar.....or people that know how to use it?

I’ve no idea what proportion of small boats have radar fitted, in West Scotland it’s noteworthy to see a yacht without it. Even the most novice of users will spot a supertanker on a radar screen.

 

[Birdseye]

Still need to rely on No.1 eyeball

Dark ships spoofing AIS

Its a non story. Gas and oil tankers are allowed to turn off their AIS as indeed are the grey funnel line. And fishing boats routinely do so

 

[capnsensible]

I’ve no idea what proportion of small boats have radar fitted, in West Scotland it’s noteworthy to see a yacht without it. Even the most novice of users will spot a supertanker on a radar screen.

I remain unconvinced. I'm sceptical of those numbers and a novice as implied, would have no idea what to do with the information.

 

[newtothis]

Its a non story. Gas and oil tankers are allowed to turn off their AIS as indeed are the grey funnel line. And fishing boats routinely do so

I can't speak for the senior service, and the rule of law stops at limits of any fishing harbour, but ships over 500gt are required to have AIS on.
And it actually is a big story for people in the business. We've been covering it since the price cap came into effect.

 

[[2574]]

I remain unconvinced. I'm sceptical of those numbers and a novice as implied, would have no idea what to do with the information.

Here is an image of our radar screen, we’re heading south down the Firth of Clyde. There are four large vessels between 3.5 and 4.5 miles distant which are 1) a warship, 2) a fishing support vessel and 3) 2 ferries. All show up with very large radar echoes. The oil tanker as discussed in this thread would likely give a bigger radar return than those shown. In the image both AIS and the radar echo can be seen, but a large echo such as those shown would give significant warning and awareness of a large vessel in the vicinity which was not transmitting an AIS signal. Awareness of the vessel then facilitates application of ColRegs as normal. Hope that helps.

 

[capnsensible]

All very good. In fairness I can use radar and show others how to operate various makes. But most of what you say, despite being correct, is background fuzz for a novice....

I had a quick 'scan' (!) On yachts for sale in scotland. There were loads. 2 with radar. Anyway I'm getting like a forum argueist so time to wind my neck in.

Ps submarines don't use ais......

 

[Porthandbuoy]

The Grey Funnel Line have been spoofing AIS for years, either by going ‘dark’, faking their position or mimicking other vessels.

 

[boomerangben]

All very good. In fairness I can use radar and show others how to operate various makes. But most of what you say, despite being correct, is background fuzz for a novice....

I had a quick 'scan' (!) On yachts for sale in scotland. There were loads. 2 with radar. Anyway I'm getting like a forum argueist so time to wind my neck in.

Ps submarines don't use ais......

And how many who have radar have a means of seeing and operating it from the helm position?

 

[Sandy]

And how many who have radar have a means of seeing it from the helm position?

I do. Everybody I know does as their RADAR is displayed on their chart plotter by the helm.

 

[Sandy]

The Grey Funnel Line have been spoofing AIS for years, either by going ‘dark’, faking their position or mimicking other vessels.

Also Border Force...

Spotted one grey dawn was one of their cutters steaming at full speed towards me and no AIS.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Also Border Force...

Spotted one grey dawn was one of their cutters steaming at full speed towards me and no AIS.

Don't see much Border Force up here, nor oversize, overloaded rubber dinghies thank goodness. But you're right, everything associated with the military or security services seem exempt from the rules governing the use of AIS. I wouldn't be at all surprised if ATONs and synchronised buoys in the approaches to naval bases can be spoofed in the same manner, but maybe I'm just being paranoid.

 

[newtothis]

Because shipping is a little more complicated than picking up a t.v. from a guy in the pub carpark.
I'm not saying it's right the way it is. But it is the way it is.

If anyone wants an easily-digestible intro into the issues of dark fleet shipping, the Grauniad did a piece that is largely accurate.
How a burnt out, abandoned ship reveals the secrets of a shadow tanker network

 

[johnalison]

And how many who have radar have a means of seeing and operating it from the helm position?

It is not always necessary to run a boat to the same standards as a naval vessel. We sail at least two-up, leaving one person free to view the radar at the chart table. If necessary I can repeat the screen on my iPad, and either option has been good enough and vastly better than nothing.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

I have sailed in dark between Brittany and Cornwall with nothing visible by eyeball or AIS then suddenly nav lights appear and my AIS screen shows some boats about 300m ahead of me. Five fishing boats playing games fishing either where they shouldnt or at least where they want no other fishing fleets to get word of.

And thats just fish not megabuck oil or weapon shipping.

And in international waters its hard to enforce compliance even if you know who is guilty

 

[[2574]]

And how many who have radar have a means of seeing and operating it from the helm position?

why Is there this apparent disbelief that any leisure yottie doesn’t have the ability to have, see or interpret radar? It’s a great tool, arguably more use than AIS yet there is an overwhelming negativity to it on this thread - technology that has been in use since 39-45. If such lack of radar knowledge exists then surely rather than spout negativity it would be more beneficial to find out and learn about it?

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Here is an image of our radar screen, we’re heading south down the Firth of Clyde. There are four large vessels between 3.5 and 4.5 miles distant which are 1) a warship, 2) a fishing support vessel and 3) 2 ferries. All show up with very large radar echoes. The oil tanker as discussed in this thread would likely give a bigger radar return than those shown. In the image both AIS and the radar echo can be seen, but a large echo such as those shown would give significant warning and awareness of a large vessel in the vicinity which was not transmitting an AIS signal. Awareness of the vessel then facilitates application of ColRegs as normal. View attachment 164591Hope that helps.

Without intending to sound negative, can you explain why there are at least three buoys just over 3 miles off on your screenshot that don't seem to be returning an echo? Similarly, the Innellan beacon a little over 2 miles away yet no echo. Genuinely puzzled and in no way playing down the use of radar.

 

[[2574]]

Without intending to sound negative, can you explain why there are at least three buoys just over 3 miles off on your screenshot that don't seem to be returning an echo? Similarly, the Innellan beacon a little over 2 miles away yet no echo. Genuinely puzzled and in no way playing down the use of radar.

No idea, possibly too far away for a small target? No radar reflector on those buoys? I’m no radar guru, I can just see the obvious benefits, at least for my style of use.

 

[lustyd]

Here is an image of our radar screen, we’re heading south down the Firth of Clyde. There are four large vessels between 3.5 and 4.5 miles distant which are 1) a warship, 2) a fishing support vessel and 3) 2 ferries. All show up with very large radar echoes. The oil tanker as discussed in this thread would likely give a bigger radar return than those shown. In the image both AIS and the radar echo can be seen, but a large echo such as those shown would give significant warning and awareness of a large vessel in the vicinity which was not transmitting an AIS signal. Awareness of the vessel then facilitates application of ColRegs as normal. Hope that helps.

Ironically this just shows how the AIS immediately demonstrates that none of those are a threat while the RADAR will require waiting and watching, and even then will give a best guess. The lack of reflections from a lot of things that ought to reflect shows that a poorly configured RADAR is just as likely to miss something as AIS is. I'm a fan of both, so find these threads quite amusing, especially the OP, given that your screenshot could have been in fog then the eyeball would have no value whatsoever!

I have sailed in dark between Brittany and Cornwall with nothing visible by eyeball or AIS then suddenly nav lights appear and my AIS screen shows some boats about 300m ahead of me. Five fishing boats playing games fishing either where they shouldnt or at least where they want no other fishing fleets to get word of.

But if you transmit AIS most of those boats would have seen you two hours away so you don't necessarily need to see them. A modern fishing vessel looks like the starship Enterprise in the bridge, except often with Netflix!