Does Red Diesel Issue = Rapid Diesel Vessel Depreciation

[Gludy]

Many of us pay a lot less than 55p per litre hence the treble price. Plus there may be large additional cost heaped onto the suppliers with separate fule tanks etc.

What really matters is the marginal cost of a trip - a local trip costing say £300 you may just about accept - if the costs goes to £750 you would not do the trip - its a question of value for money.

 

[AdeOlly]

If the monthly budget for boating is £100 only part of that will be fuel...

Granted those on the margins may have problems, and that's one of the key reasons we're all fighting the case.

My point was that peeps that can afford £1000 a month on boating can probably find the extra £150 or so.

 

[AdeOlly]

Sure if you're lucky enough to pay 35p or so at the mo the price will treble. Where can you get fuel for that price??

The ones that will really suffer are those with large boats and inefficient engines, and I can see those vessels decreasing in value. Maybe the flip side is that smaller boats, say sub 35', with modern engines will increase in value as owners trade down????

 

[Gludy]

A lot of boaters struggle to run their boats.
I know a boater who bought a petrol boat - went on his first trip and spent £800 on fuel - then spent the whole winter changing his boat over to diesel. if he was being forced to spend at the petrol price he would not be able to do it.

Last year I was paying 22p per litre - if red goes given the natural fuel inflation plus the extra tax the fuel costs could easily be £1.30 per litre - faced with that sort of increase over a short time many boaters will not be able to afford to keep their boats.

For those who could afford it many would choose not to afford it and either sell up or take the boat away from the UK. The balance will have tipped away from keeping it here.

Many of those who have made money and can afford large boats value money and want value for money - the stereotype of the rich who do not care about value for money is not true - or at least only true in a small number of cases.

Those indifferent to what may happen or arguing that it would not have a large effect on boating are simply fooling themselves and sometimes those who listen to them.

If anything, if red goes, it will signal the demise of the large planing cruising boat in the UK. There would probably be a move towards displacement and semi-displacement boats. All high speed planing boats use a lot of fuel relative to their size and so all would be hit - regardless of being 30 foot or 60 foot.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Assuming boat is wholly owned.

Mooring costs are fixed (pretty much) regardless of fuel costs
Insurance ditto
Licences ditto
so not germane to the argument. I'm assuming £100 per month on fuel. Not too hard to do if you get out and play every weekend.

In passing I don't get through that much, don't get the time.

 

[Gludy]

A single fill up at 43p per litre costs me over £1k - that could end up at £3k plus.

Cruising boats of any size do not get far on £100 worth of fuel. It will hurt and it will effect the whole cruising power boat market.

 

[Robih]

Gludy,

We've shared our views (which are similar) on this subject before and we've been shot down as scaremongerers; but my view remains pessimistic. You might remember that I've sold out of power boating in to sail because of my concerns.

You're right again about your refuel going from £1k to £3k and can I ask you, as a big Squadron owner, whether that level of cost will significantly affect your future cruising/boat owning decisions? Personal question granted so please feel free to ignore. I'm interested because the Squadron owner is always used as an illustration of an owner who, having spent a pile on buying the boat really won't care about the £3k refuel cost - is that true for you?

rob

 

[Gludy]

No it is not true of me nor of other squadron owners I know.


Some would take their boats away from the UK.

Some would pack it in.

I do not know anyone who would just carry on. Even now with our local fuel price having doubled in one year - it has changed the views and owners are waiting to see what happens with red.

I have purchased a new SD boat that offers me a choice of going slow in a comfortable fashion and using 1/3 of the fuel. So it has changed my boating already.

You have come out of power so it has changed yours.

I know for certain that those with smaller boats who say just manage the £100 for the weekend are not going to manage the £300 for the same trip.

"Squadron owner is always used as an illustration of an owner who, having spent a pile on buying the boat really won't care about the £3k refuel cost "

I only know those who care, I know none who would take this 'do not care' view - they say its better to take a holiday than go for a weekend cruise ... its a question of value for money, there comes a point when they would prefer to spend thier money on something else.

The idea that those who can afford a Squadron just throw their money around care free is rubbish. Its an idea fixed in some troubled blazered salemans mind .... the old "if you need to ask about the fuel consumption then you cannot afford the boat ...." Utter rubbish. I ask and I can afford.

Spending money is about choosing the best balance for your needs - change the price and that balance changes because other options become preferable inlcuding the option not to spend the money at all.

Boat sales are not good at present - I think generally speaking sales of gin palaces at SIBS will turn out to be poor - already the trade is reporting an overall poor year - only part of this will be due to the confusion over Red but if red goes to road price level and beyond you can expect to see a major effect throughout the marine industry - the red issue has not been discounted - most boaters I speak to think they just cannot do away with it .... wishful thinking.

 

[Robih]

Interesting, agreed and as I expected.

Rob

 

[Cobra8]

Interesting to know that even the well heeled look at the price on the pump when they fill up…

But I think I prefer the idea that they don’t care and that they all sit around drinking gin smoking big fat cigars while looking down from the Flybridge at us in our 30 footers.

It gives me something to aspire to…

 

[Robih]

the "well heeled" are "well heeled" because they have always looked at the price on the pump in all its various forms!

rob

 

[GC1]

You seem to be very blinkered, with your size of boat there are numerous other more efficient and slightly smaller if necessary boats that you could buy, why would people give up and not just get a boat that suits? All new buyers who are buying knowing the costs will have no problem, as for someone who buys a boat without researching and gets a surprise at the fuel costs, well more the fool he is.

Boating will go on, it will be upset for a year or so with the wrong people in the wrong boats but will settlle IMHO. Those left holding big uneconomical boats will be hardest hit, the smart ones are out of the market now with their cash safely put away watching and waiting, easier to get back at where they were if nothing changes or at a level they feel comfortable with, not left with a boat rotting unused on a swinging mooring.

I do feel sorry for those that will be affected, but they have had the good times, it has been well documented and broadcast, no excuses for anyone who has been in denial until now. I am a petrol boater and have paid my taxes, why should a diesel boater have it any different, who has stood up for me shouting about reducing the tax on petrol for boats? The party is over, be prepared for reality or take the consequences.

 

[GC1]

I agree, but why have they not 'unscrewed themselves', it has been common knowledge for a long time, too many heads in the sand for too long. Anyone caught out now who will be in real trouble has brought it on themselves for not taking action earlier, there are a lot who have and are not faced with this problem.

 

[Robih]

If you read Gludy's post carefully you will see that he has taken action to mitigate the effect by buying in to a semi-displacement hull. Your implied criticism seems unfair.

 

[GC1]

I am talking about the general view he takes, he has taken the right step, but others have not. But as I have said and most people realise there are a lot of 'heads in the sand' out there still /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Gludy]

I find your views a little harsh, if not selfish.

Hardest hit will be the typical cruising power boater with a 30 foot something that he loves and struggles to keep. If the entire market had sold out to convert to cash the prices would have dropped like a stone - many are trapped and live in hope that it will never happen.

its not easy for them to try and sell up - stay out of their hobby for 2 years or more then hope to buy in - real world factors such as they losing their marina berth would matter to them but that does not seem to bother you at all.

"why should a diesel boater have it any different, who has stood up for me shouting about reducing the tax on petrol for boats?"

Well that a nice selfish position:-

1. The chances of petrol being reduced just for boats is zilch. To have argued such a case would never have resulted in anything but damage to boating.

2. You bought into a petrol boat knowing the costs.

3. You had a choice of buying into diesel and chose not to.

When did you buy your boat?

What is your boat?

Where is it berthed?

You seem to be handing down these harsh judgements so it would help if we could understand a little of your boating experience etc.

 

[AdeOlly]

Agreed the marginal cost of a trip is largely the fuel cost, plus food, beer and visitor's berthing fees, albeit these are discretionary to a point!!

I switched from petrol to S24 diesel this year (long sad expensive story my petrol boat, including it testing the engine bay fire extinguishers fitted the week before... they worked!) and I will upgrade to a larger boat once the fuel situation is known. £100 of fuel takes me over 150 miles at 25 knots in the S24, and as a proportion of my budgeted annual costs doesn't figure all that highly. It's huge fun too!

I have a friend with a Phantom 38 who's obviously not happy with the prospect of double fuel costs, in his case, but will dig deeper, maybe use the boat a little less, but will carry on with it. His Phantom is financed, so the percentage increase on his boating budget is not huge given his cruising usage.

The impact on individuals will clearly vary immensely depending on their circumstances. Although the new boat market rumoured to be slow, (tho marine finance companies reporting record lending figures) there were plenty of people who appeared to be negotiating deals on new planing boats at SIBS.

 

[Gludy]

" I will upgrade to a larger boat once the fuel situation is known"

Even you are making decisions based upon the result of the red issue. Your friend whilst not giving up boating will restrict his boating. These are natural adjustments by the users to the market change. Others will get out of boating all together, yet others will take their boats outside the UK - no more tax will be collected and our hobby will be hard hit.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Interesting to note from the news today that HMG will _not_ up the tax on aviation fuel, _and_ maintain it would have no environmental effect if they did.

Now isn't than interesting. Something to do with holiday flyers votes I suspect

 

[AdeOlly]

Just like to point out I do support the campaign to keep red and am not indifferent to the outcome. In my first post I was making a specific point about a specific situation.

I freely admit I'm taking advantage of my circumstances to minimse my downside, which is clearly a lot less than yours.

On the main forum pages I see threads going up about the virtues of differing drive types on prospective 50' fly purchases and which new model of large planing boat to go for. This is among folk that know the red situation. I agree some people will be hit hard, will have to change their boating habits, will have to trade down in size, or that no more tax will be collected, but equally I don't subscribe to the "it'll be the end of large planing boats in the UK" theory.

It'll not be nice for sure, but it'll not be the end of motor boating.

As an aside - whilst wandering around SIBS on Sunday I was wondering if any of the UK manufacturers currently focused on planing boats were going to move into the SD market if red goes.