Does British boat building have a future?

[DavidJ]

The irony being that the Japanese learnt from the Americans in the 50’s and 60’s.

Indeed yes
I remember many many (and more) decades ago spending a whole week with Deming. He was then trying in vane to influence UK manufacturers to adopt his techniques so proven in Japan ….. Lucas being a prime example. 20 years later they caught on but it was too late.

 

[rafiki_]

Indeed yes
I remember many many (and more) decades ago spending a whole week with Deming. He was then trying in vane to influence UK manufacturers to adopt his techniques so proven in Japan ….. Lucas being a prime example. 20 years later they caught on but it was too late.

Lucas, the Prince of Darkness

 

[henryf]

Someone asked about the wooden mock up and VR options.

One of the reasons why we have a Princess and not one of the European brands is because the Princess is inch perfect in the way it uses space. All the other boats we looked at that might have worked had glitches in their design. Stuff that didn’t quite work once you were onboard. It might be a helm position that doesn’t provide good vision, bathrooms you can’t fit in or just stuff you keep banging into.

You work all these things out at the wooden mock up stage. I hear @jfm loud and clear with his route to profitability and he will trade a bit of quality providing the boat is still good enough. I would fight really hard to keep the mock up stage knowing that it would set our boats apart when they went to market. Some people wouldn’t notice but the reason they like the design is because it fits so well and that fit is down to the mock up.

You can get a good idea of visual appearance with VR but you can’t tell if something is 3 or 4 feet inches out of place. I know it’s the case because all the other boats I see suffer from it.

 

[rafiki_]

Someone asked about the wooden mock up and VR options.

One of the reasons why we have a Princess and not one of the European brands is because the Princess is inch perfect in the way it uses space. All the other boats we looked at that might have worked had glitches in their design. Stuff that didn’t quite work once you were onboard. It might be a helm position that doesn’t provide good vision, bathrooms you can’t fit in or just stuff you keep banging into.

You work all these things out at the wooden mock up stage. I hear @jfm loud and clear with his route to profitability and he will trade a bit of quality providing the boat is still good enough. I would fight really hard to keep the mock up stage knowing that it would set our boats apart when they went to market. Some people wouldn’t notice but the reason they like the design is because it fits so well and that fit is down to the mock up.

You can get a good idea of visual appearance with VR but you can’t tell if something is 3 or 4 feet inches out of place. I know it’s the case because all the other boats I see suffer from it.

Sorry Henry, yes you can, with huge accuracy. You can use a hybrid VR/reality process until you build confidence in the VR.it really works. Plus you can confirm manufacturing tool paths and assembly processes. This tech is 10-20 years old in the auto industry. VR goggles are more than adequate, and cost pence. Gaming software is low cost and more than adequate. You need a couple of 12 year old Herbert’s though.

 

[prestomg27]

Sorry Henry, yes you can, with huge accuracy. You can use a hybrid VR/reality process until you build confidence in the VR.it really works. Plus you can confirm manufacturing tool paths and assembly processes. This tech is 10-20 years old in the auto industry. VR goggles are more than adequate, and cost pence. Gaming software is low cost and more than adequate. You need a couple of 12 year old Herbert’s though.

Good point. Uk boat manufacturing has been behind the curve for 3 decades and the absence of high tech VR/CAD shows why we are seeing the final demise of the last few builders.

 

[rafiki_]

I don’t share all the doom and gloom. As JFM has highlighted earlier, there are still opportunities for British boatbuilding, if they clarify their core market, and develop a sensible production and purchasing strategy. There is huge recognition about what we are good at in terms of style, design and performance. There remains huge innovation capability here, plus great academic competence. This needs harnessing.

 

[47GC]

With some excellent operational, production & financial governance, there’s no reason why the British builders can not flourish. Like has been said, these boats are selling, just need a good management team with a clear vision.

 

[CMJ]

Someone asked about the wooden mock up and VR options.

One of the reasons why we have a Princess and not one of the European brands is because the Princess is inch perfect in the way it uses space. All the other boats we looked at that might have worked had glitches in their design. Stuff that didn’t quite work once you were onboard. It might be a helm position that doesn’t provide good vision, bathrooms you can’t fit in or just stuff you keep banging into.

You work all these things out at the wooden mock up stage. I hear @jfm loud and clear with his route to profitability and he will trade a bit of quality providing the boat is still good enough. I would fight really hard to keep the mock up stage knowing that it would set our boats apart when they went to market. Some people wouldn’t notice but the reason they like the design is because it fits so well and that fit is down to the mock up.

You can get a good idea of visual appearance with VR but you can’t tell if something is 3 or 4 feet inches out of place. I know it’s the case because all the other boats I see suffer from it.

Maybe physically feeling your way around a mock-up has a slight advantage ref space, I don’t know, but it comes at a huge cost (Interesting to hear what ‘Rafiki’ is saying though ref space accuracy and VR). What you can’t do with a mock-up is get glitzy and alternative life-like visuals of how it will look with a click of a button (which you could do with VR).

We had an Azimut for about 14 years and not once did I have an issue with stuff being in the wrong place… I think I just subconsciously dealt with it, accepting the boat for what it was.

When we turned up with it at Port Solent in 2007, it made the British boats look decades behind in terms of styling (just my opinion of course) e.g. Stainless trim still being used around the windows on the British boats. The fact that it looked more modern is why we bought it over a UK boat.

I appreciate styling is not the debate here though, but instead manufacturing inefficiencies / management etc… and also appreciate there’s a lot of people who must love Princess’s because of the great order book....they're just not for me.

 

[47GC]

Is it not the case that hull number one is tweaked in the next reiteration. I remember seeing hull one of the P43 and it was a bit rough round the edges. Future hulls interiors were definitely improved.

 

[Elessar]

Sorry Henry, yes you can, with huge accuracy. You can use a hybrid VR/reality process until you build confidence in the VR.it really works. Plus you can confirm manufacturing tool paths and assembly processes. This tech is 10-20 years old in the auto industry. VR goggles are more than adequate, and cost pence. Gaming software is low cost and more than adequate. You need a couple of 12 year old Herbert’s though.

We’ve just installed a brand new state of the art VR cave in work and it’s available to rent if princess get their act together. Don’t need chunky gaming goggles in there. You know where it is……

 

[Egret]

For CAD/CAM to work the hull moulding needs to be millimetre perfect with no flex, but as components are added the hull will flex and move. Maybe that is why timber templates are still used in the traditional way in places.

 

[vas]

Sorry Henry, yes you can, with huge accuracy. You can use a hybrid VR/reality process until you build confidence in the VR.it really works. Plus you can confirm manufacturing tool paths and assembly processes. This tech is 10-20 years old in the auto industry. VR goggles are more than adequate, and cost pence. Gaming software is low cost and more than adequate. You need a couple of 12 year old Herbert’s though.

correct! I can sent you a couple of my architect students if you wish

Good point. Uk boat manufacturing has been behind the curve for 3 decades and the absence of high tech VR/CAD shows why we are seeing the final demise of the last few builders.

this is particularly sad, if you check a bit and realise that the first VR tech (s/w and h/w) started in the UK in the 70s-80s, subsequently sold to the US (as it always happens...)

 

[petem]

Ref VR, Fairline have used it in the past to preview models to the public before they were released.

 

[Egret]

Would be surprised though if the basic drawing and 'testing' isn't 3D CAD and has been for many years - I last used a drawing board for building work in 1990 and VR visualisation by headset for presentation of options was in use by 2010 so 15 years go, and using a program like Revit can give schedules of materials for cutting provided you build up the drawing by components. There must be a boating equivalent.

But accurate drawing of some boat components for CAD/CAM may be difficult due to the complex curves and flex - hence the timber templates. The limitations of CAD can restrict design options - less opportunity for 'flair' in the design - which might be easier when making the 'plug' for the mould, if this is still done. .

Out of interest, does anyone know if/when finite element type stress analysis started being used for hulls generally - must have been sometime in the 1980's or 1990's when the hulls became thinner. Surprised how thin my 1990 built boat is.

 

[petem]

Would be surprised though if the basic drawing and 'testing' isn't 3D CAD and has been for many years - I last used a drawing board for building work in 1990 and VR visualisation by headset for presentation of options was in use by 2010 so 15 years go, and using a program like Revit can give schedules of materials for cutting provided you build up the drawing by components. There must be a boating equivalent.

But accurate drawing of some boat components for CAD/CAM may be difficult due to the complex curves and flex - hence the timber templates. The limitations of CAD can restrict design options - less opportunity for 'flair' in the design - . Also it can be a nightmare in the CAD model if someone wants to change something, especially if a big team in remote places are all inputting into the same 'virtual model.', although easier than with a wooden model. Do boat designers ever have to completely change the design when M&E installers want bigger air/heating ducts?

Does anyone know if/when finite element type stress analysis started being used for hulls generally - must have been sometime in the 1980's or 1990's when the hulls became thinner. Surprised how thin my 1990 built boat is.

I can't answer your hull question but I know that Fairline (and I suspect the other manufacturers) started using CAD for deck moulds for models launched in the early 2000's. My 2003 boat was made with non CAD mouldings and some deck parts, that are supposed to be symmetrical, vary in size by a few mm.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

With some excellent operational, production & financial governance, there’s no reason why the British builders can not flourish. Like has been said, these boats are selling, just need a good management team with a clear vision.

Yes and no. Probably with what they are doing now it might be hard, very hard.

Sometimes for boat builders to flourish they need to change direction hard.

The US market is an example to this. By 2010-15 US pleasure boat building looked to be living in borrowed time.
The only sportfish selling was Viking and the custom yards, and the rest where losing money or just counting the losses.
But it was not, As in that decade the CC/WA and outboard market has emerged as a huge force, and is today the force of American boat building.
The numbers that some center consoles and what they have become in the last decade is impressive.

Some others mostly Italian but also Fjord have captured part of this market with a different call it European flair offer.
As for example did Pardo who with the 43 model have sold over 500 units in seven years. More then the Princess V39/40 in half the time and costing 40% more.
Sometimes you have to think fast as well, as for example Solaris Power who initially wanted to do down east inspired looking boat with modern details, see drop down balconies.
That did not work much and so in a year they entered into the cabined CC-WA, which again have proofed to be a success, and today build 50-100 boats a year.

At this moment there is the dual console boats emerging which by the end of this decade will have taken over the CC market for new boat sales.
Obviously you have to feel the pulse of the boaters and what they want.

So may be the British need to change direction in what to do to remain relevant..

 

[petem]

@PowerYachtBlog do manufacturers such as Midnight Express make a profit?

 

[Bouba]

Yes and no. Probably with what they are doing now it might be hard, very hard.

Sometimes for boat builders to flourish they need to change direction hard.

The US market is an example to this. By 2010-15 US pleasure boat building looked to be living in borrowed time.
The only sportfish selling was Viking and the custom yards, and the rest where losing money or just counting the losses.
But it was not, As in that decade the CC/WA and outboard market has emerged as a huge force, and is today the force of American boat building.
The numbers that some center consoles and what they have become in the last decade is impressive.

Some others mostly Italian but also Fjord have captured part of this market with a different call it European flair offer.
As for example did Pardo who with the 43 model have sold over 500 units in seven years. More then the Princess V39/40 in half the time and costing 40% more.
Sometimes you have to think fast as well, as for example Solaris Power who initially wanted to do down east inspired looking boat with modern details, see drop down balconies.
That did not work much and so in a year they entered into the cabined CC-WA, which again have proofed to be a success, and today build 50-100 boats a year.

At this moment there is the dual console boats emerging which by the end of this decade will have taken over the CC market for new boat sales.
Obviously you have to feel the pulse of the boaters and what they want.

So may be the British need to change direction in what to do to remain relevant..

American builders consolidated with companies like Brunswick....and the French did it with Beneteau. Perhaps the British builders also need to consolidate with economy of scale being the goal.....then all boats can essentially be the same under the skin but dressed for the perceived market difference of brands....perhaps Fairline is the economy model, a midrange Sunseeker all the way to the market topping Princess....

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

American builders consolidated with companies like Brunswick....and the French did it with Beneteau. Perhaps the British builders also need to consolidate with economy of scale being the goal.....then all boats can essentially be the same under the skin but dressed for the perceived market difference of brands....perhaps Fairline is the economy model, a midrange Sunseeker all the way to the market topping Princess....

Brunswick makes a lot of money with Mercury engines. They have a Duck doing golden eggs with Mercury, although to be fair they invested heavily in it to retake fully in there hands form the Japanese.
They also destroyed Volvo stern drive market sub-forty foot as four strokes developed to be better.

Its current most successful boat builder is Boston Whaler if we go to a size which matter, see what I said above.

Bayliner is a shell to what is used to be, and its bigger boat is like 28ft.
Sea Ray had to back down from a Yacht line project in 2018 after just five years as they where losing money, and today is biggest boat is an open cockpit WA 40ft.
They had to sell Hatteras, they closed Cabo which they sold with Hatteras.

Beneteau Group offers a price competitive product which has worked well for them, after being left vacant by the Brits in the early noughties.

The problem today more then ever is that Fairline-Princess-Sunseeker offer the same product. The only distinct offer from the three brands might be the small F//Line 33.
The rest is the same. Probably if all stays the same only one will survive in the future....

The builders I mentioned the success off CC and upcoming DC style boats has nothing to do with Brunswick, with the exception of Boston Whalers.

But companies like Scout, HCB, Sea Hunter, Midnight Express have an interesting turn over and have grown interestingly to medium sized boat builders today.

 

[DAW]

American builders consolidated with companies like Brunswick....and the French did it with Beneteau. Perhaps the British builders also need to consolidate with economy of scale being the goal.....then all boats can essentially be the same under the skin but dressed for the perceived market difference of brands....perhaps Fairline is the economy model, a midrange Sunseeker all the way to the market topping Princess....

If some form of consolidation was to occur, I don't think you succeed with an economy / mid-range / premium segmentation of the market. All this usually achieves is loss of separate brand identity and over time the ranges develop significant overlap, become confusing to the customer and cannibalising each others customers. Better to follow the model of the Ferretti Group, position the brands differently and then work to make each a leader in its respective, narrowly defined segment.

FWIW (probably not much ), here's my view

Perhaps Sunseeker could be the equivalent of Riva / Pershing ... powerful, fast, stylish and expensive, focusing on the market for sports cruisers, sports bridge and low-slung flybridge "yachts" in the 50-90ft size range with a big marketing budget, targetting celebrity/high-profile customers and those for whom image is everything. Princess could be the equivalent of Ferretti Yachts ... refined elegance, conservative styling, superior build quality and a better overall "value" proposition for the knowledgeable HNW/UHNW customer, concentrating on the mainstream 50-80ft flybridge market with maybe one or two "halo" products at the 90ft size. They would need to find a new niche for Fairline which doesn't overlap with either of the above ... perhaps something like Absolute's Navetta range of trawlers in the 50-70ft size range, Bluegame's open cockpit yachts, or why not something like the Pardo / Wajer market for practical open day boats in the 40-60ft range. If they did want to continue in the large yacht market, all of the existing models should be redesigned and consolidated under a new brand with a strong focus on sleek design, owner customisation and ultra-high quality and relaunched as an alternative to brands like Custom Line, Sanlorenzo, etc. in the 100-130ft range (i.e. not positioned simply an extension of the existing product lines into bigger hulls using the same design language and interior finishes).

Increase the degree of standardisation in non-visible areas (marine engineering, powertrains, domestic and household systems, etc.) across the ranges and you get economies of scale, efficiencies in building and reduction in warranty and support costs. Fully embrace modern manufacturing methodologies, rationalise and refurbish outdated facilities, and consolidate production where possible and you eliminate duplication and waste. Outsource as much as you can and you drive down inventory and costs everywhere and almost certainly drive up quality. Consolidate marketing, management and other common overheads and you save even more money.

Maybe at the end of all this after 5-10 years of hard work and some ups and downs in the market you have a profitable, cash generative group with c. £1 billion of sales that you can run as an annuity business, sell to a private buyer or float on the stock market.

We can always dream