Does "12 passengers" limit include the skipper and crew?

[tony_lavelle]

A friend with an uncoded "heritage" tug registered as a pleasure vessel says he can only have 12 people total on board. I thought that the SOLAS limit of 12 applied only to passengers, the crew being addional to this provided they have a genuine role in managing the vessel. I'm not sure whether this limit of 12 comes from SOLAS, MCA or his insurance.

Can anyone provide a link to an authoritative source for this information please?

 

[Bobc]

12 people in total

 

[Sandy]

12 POB = 12 people, make sure s/he checks with everybody: MCA and insurance it is his/her responsibility.

 

[38mess]

We have 12+2, but our other boat is 8+2

 

[mainsail1]

I seem to remember from my days of running commercial vessels that it is indeed 12 passengers plus crew. Yes, the crew are over and above the limit. Unless there has been some recent change?

 

[RivalRedwing]

Who told the OP's friend that 'he can only have 12 people total on board' ? they may have a specific reason for providing that information to your friend.

 

[capnsensible]

This is a commercial site but gives broad brush information. So it indicates 12 Passengers plus crew.

MCA Coding - MCA Code of Practice MGN 280 for Commercial or Charter

The code of practice is MGN 280.

The guys in the link above are very knowledgeable about the code and don't guess.

 

[glynd]

A friend with an uncoded "heritage" tug registered as a pleasure vessel says he can only have 12 people total on board. I thought that the SOLAS limit of 12 applied only to passengers, the crew being addional to this provided they have a genuine role in managing the vessel. I'm not sure whether this limit of 12 comes from SOLAS, MCA or his insurance.

Can anyone provide a link to an authoritative source for this information please?

See MCA MGN280 I suspect

12 passengers and crew is the limit in general, with crew not being passengers.
This is for a coded vessel etc

It would be down to the insurance / limits set for number of people on board by the design / rating Insuspect

 

[LittleSister]

We have 12+2, but our other boat is 8+2

I seem to remember from my days of running commercial vessels that it is indeed 12 passengers plus crew. Yes, the crew are over and above the limit. Unless there has been some recent change?

But this query is specifically NOT about a commercial vessel, but about an uncoded private pleasure vessel.

P.S.
MCA MGN280 (referred to by glynd) is about commercial, coded vessels, which the query is specially not.

 

[mainsail1]

But this query is specifically NOT about a commercial vessel, but about an uncoded private pleasure vessel.

P.S.
MCA MGN280 (referred to by glynd) is about commercial, coded vessels, which the query is specially not.

OK, I am confused!

 

[38mess]

OK, I am confused!

Me too....you can put as many people on a private boat as you like, check insurance first. .. it's only when you want to charge people money that it gets complicated

 

[penfold]

Me too....you can put as many people on a private boat as you like, check insurance first. .. it's only when you want to charge people money that it gets complicated

That would be fine right up to the point it turtles because everyone rushes to one side to gawp at dolphins or whatever, or goes on fire/springs a leak and needs to be evacuated; then the number of people on board needs to be smaller than the capacity of the life saving apparatus. The latter is simple arithmetic from the liferaft/lifeboat capacity, the former may require a naval architect to tell you about stability.

 

[38mess]

That would be fine right up to the point it turtles because everyone rushes to one side to gawp at dolphins or whatever, or goes on fire/springs a leak and needs to be evacuated; then the number of people on board needs to be smaller than the capacity of the life saving apparatus. The latter is simple arithmetic from the liferaft/lifeboat capacity, the former may require a naval architect to tell you about stability.

Ok I'm out.

 

[lustyd]

That would be fine right up to the point it turtles because everyone rushes to one side to gawp at dolphins or whatever, or goes on fire/springs a leak and needs to be evacuated; then the number of people on board needs to be smaller than the capacity of the life saving apparatus. The latter is simple arithmetic from the liferaft/lifeboat capacity, the former may require a naval architect to tell you about stability.

Private boats are not usually required to carry life saving apparatus so by your logic some boats have a capacity of zero

 

[Irish Rover]

My boat has a CE mark which stipulates the max number of persons permitted depending on type of usage and I'm assuming exceeding that would invalidate my insurance and lead to possible criminal charges in the event of an accident.

 

[Black Sheep]

MGN489 is a useful summary of some of the legislation, and might be the source of the comment: https://assets.publishing.service.g.../268868/mgn489-amendment-pleasure-vessels.pdf

According to MGN489, if there are more than 12 passengers, then it's no longer a Pleasure Vessel, but a Passenger Ship. The definition of passenger is given at the bottom of page 2 - basically, it excludes anyone "employed or engaged in any capacity onboard the vessel and on the business of the vessel"

But you really need to find the source of the comment. MGN489 might be a red herring.

Edit: I've chased down the regulations that MGN489 refer to. It's The Merchant Shipping (Passenger Ships) (Safety Code for UK Categorised Waters) Regulations 2010
Para 3.3.h says: “passenger ship” means a ship carrying more than 12 passengers, however propelled;
So any ship that carries more than 12 passengers will be subject to the regulations, and will need certification. I can't see a definition of "passenger" in those regs.

There may be other restrictions, but certainly that would apply

 

[Tranona]

My boat has a CE mark which stipulates the max number of persons permitted depending on type of usage and I'm assuming exceeding that would invalidate my insurance and lead to possible criminal charges in the event of an accident.
View attachment 157727

That is based on the RCD and nothing to do with UK rules. However many European states such as Greece, Portugal, Spain do use it in that way. It was never intended for regulatory/commercial use as it is just based on a metric of displacement and stability. My Bavaria 37 I used for charter in Greece was licenced for 8 people. In the UK the MCA coding rules ignore the RCD and the maximum for the same boat would be 6.

 

[Irish Rover]

That is based on the RCD and nothing to do with UK rules. However many European states such as Greece, Portugal, Spain do use it in that way. It was never intended for regulatory/commercial use as it is just based on a metric of displacement and stability. My Bavaria 37 I used for charter in Greece was licenced for 8 people. In the UK the MCA coding rules ignore the RCD and the maximum for the same boat would be 6.

The OP indicated he's talking about a pleasure rather than a commercial vessel. RCD not applying in the UK must be a recent development and I'm sure it has been welcomed with open arms by British boaters .

 

[Tranona]

The OP indicated he's talking about a pleasure rather than a commercial vessel. RCD not applying in the UK must be a recent development and I'm sure it has been welcomed with open arms by British boaters .

The RCD does apply (or now its UK equivalent which is the same). The point about the people bit is that it is nothing to do with any legal status for carrying people. In the UK there are no legal constraints for private use. You could carry 25 people on your boat and not break any laws. I have not checked but suspect that in the countries I mentioned it would be illegal for private use to exceed the RCD limits, just as area of usage is determined by the category and which I know are used for commercial coding. The point I am making is that in the UK the RCD categories and capacity are not used at all as the MCA has its own rules for commercial use.

The RCD is part of consumer legislation (CE marking) intended to give guidance to buyers as to whether the product is suitable for their intended use, not for any regulatory purpose.

 

[Irish Rover]

The RCD does apply (or now its UK equivalent which is the same). The point about the people bit is that it is nothing to do with any legal status for carrying people. In the UK there are no legal constraints for private use. You could carry 25 people on your boat and not break any laws. I have not checked but suspect that in the countries I mentioned it would be illegal for private use to exceed the RCD limits, just as area of usage is determined by the category and which I know are used for commercial coding. The point I am making is that in the UK the RCD categories and capacity are not used at all as the MCA has its own rules for commercial use.

The RCD is part of consumer legislation (CE marking) intended to give guidance to buyers as to whether the product is suitable for their intended use, not for any regulatory purpose.

I take your point but I believe my earlier point is valid - I could have a problem with my insurance or worse if something goes wrong while I'm exceeding the limits for which my boat was intended and clearly marked.