Do you use a motor cone when motor sailing?

[Nico]

But can you see it?

Let's face it, lots of people don't put a cone up because they can't be bothered and it's fairly obvious when they are motoring (in most cases), whereas an anchor ball is something you attend to when you have checked you aren't dragging and have put the kettle on.

But what use is a motoring cone when the bloody thing is barely visible? A firmly sheeted in main, and something about the motion and speed of the boat, tells you when a boat is motoring with sails up. That and the Bavaria logo on the sail ;-)

 

[Csail]

No.....does it really matter if your doing 4knts or 7???
We use the anchor ball though.

 

[Danny Jo]

Yes, but not at night!

Actually, a lot more often now that I've discovered how easy it is to raise and lower it on the staysail halyard, and keep it in the anchor locker.

I am not entirely sure why I feel so much more comfortable motorsailing with the appropriate day shape, but perhaps it is one or more of these:

1) Being constitutionally eccentric, I hate doing what everyone else does.

2) Being a pompous prick, I am confusing a smug sense of superiority with comfort.

3) Being a Scuttlebutt reader, I get a kick out of proving wrong those who believe I am either just out of sailing school or taking my yachtmaster practical.

4) Being an advocate of the "do-as-you-would-be-done-by" school, a lover of life, and a hater of ambiguity, I prefer crossing situations in which both parties are clear about which boat is to stand on.

 

[Kilter]

Yes, but not at night!

Nor me so if we ever cross at night we're doomed!

 

[Robin]

& the anchor light in the correct position too

No rule that says it has to be there. So there

If motoring with the main only up and no wind or dead into the wind isn't obvious from afar the viewer needs educating as much as me. Yes I have very rarely sailed with just the main alone but also aware that it might confuse others so would avoid any potential for conflict.

I was once ticked off by a sad pedant for still having the French coutesy flag flying on our way back into Poole. I told him I wasn't prepared to risk injury or going overboard by taking it down earlier, even just outside the harbour. We had just crossed from Cherbourg with a full F8 albeit over the quarter, big springs and seas to match. Just two of us on board and dropping the courtesy flag let alone hoisting a bloody cone could go hang.

It didn't fool any mobos either and spoil their day, there wasn't a single one out to play that day.

 

[Madhatter]

My boat is that small peeps would think it was raining if I had a cone up

 

[Kilter]

My boat is that small peeps would think it was raining if I had a cone up

two thoughts:

1 cone other way up

2 if the boat's that small a brolly might make a good spinny for you!

 

[Sans Bateau]

I knew this would run and run!

It seems that the ONLY reason people give (admit to?) for not hoisting a cone is that they cant be bothered. No one, I dont think, has ever given a real answer why one should not use a cone. Laziness is the answer it seems.

Wind on the nose motoring into a steep sea between Needles and Weymouth last month, did I hoist a cone? No. Reason, night was closing so soon I'd have a steaming light lit and it would have been somewhat dangerous to go on the fore deck. That is a good reason not to hoist. (Agree with Robin above)

Motoring in the summer, no sails. The boat is a power boat, nothing less. No cone needed.

Yacht with the main up, I sail with just the main some times, down wind the genny is just flapping, so roll it away, I'm still sailing, if anyone challenges me in a Stbd situation, I am under sail.

Motoring with the main up only hoist the cone, do it properly!

Mind you I cannot for the life of me see why people bother putting a main up if they are going to motor across the Solent, what is even dafter is when people are motoring with just a main in a direction that would give them a good sail!

 

[Sneaky Pete]

Yes I believe it is part of collision avoidance regs and RYA sailing seamanship you are letting others know that it is easier for you to manoeuver, also if at anchor an achor ball should be shown I heard of someone who sustained damage to his boat whilst at anchor, the insurance company refused to pay out because there was no achor ball displayed. you could always play spot the motoring cone when out sailing, see how many hours it takes for the first sighting.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Good question, would you?

This must perforce be a hypothetical answer, since I don't actually own a cone, but that said ... no, I wouldn't.

Next question. Who here displays an anchor light when on their swinging mooring. If not, why not?

 

[Ubergeekian]

I answered this question before it was asked; I suggest you read my First post (of two) in this thread.

Indeed you did, and that seems like a very reasonable policy.

 

[Ubergeekian]

No rule that says it has to be there.

30 (a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;

 

[Robin]

I knew this would run and run!


Motoring in the summer, no sails. The boat is a power boat, nothing less. No cone needed.

Yacht with the main up, I sail with just the main some times, down wind the genny is just flapping, so roll it away, I'm still sailing, if anyone challenges me in a Stbd situation, I am under sail.

Motoring with the main up only hoist the cone, do it properly!

Mind you I cannot for the life of me see why people bother putting a main up if they are going to motor across the Solent, what is even dafter is when people are motoring with just a main in a direction that would give them a good sail!

Cruising locally for a weekend and going just from Poole to the Solent, the probability is the wind will be W or SW so on the tail. We have a quick boat with a tall rig, large genoa and main but wind closer than 40 degs of the tail is flip flap floppy slow with both sails up. Odds are we will motor out of the harbour with no sail up, then sail all the way to the Solent with just the genoa, no engine needed and no cone needed. We can do this in light winds and still make a reasonable speed but then our RR genny is near 600sqft so why hide it behind a 300sqft main?

The return trip will likely be upwind or no wind. If no wind, I see no point in putting the main up for what 2.5hrs so no cone needed again. If there is wind then we will sail and both sails are up, no engine and of course no cone needed.

Then when we reach our destination, with just us two wrinklies on board a biggish boat with a fully battened main, we chose to drop the mainsail outside the harbour in the open. Most often we do this without the engine (main backwinds nicely in close sheeted genny), thereafter we sail in to the harbour right up to our marina with just the genny, again no cone required. There is a possibility we might have to roll the genoa away and put the engine on for 5 minutes to clear the chain ferry on the entrance which has right of way, but now no sail is up and still no cone needed.

If instead, we head across Channel, in a flat calm we might have no sail but realistically if motoring will put the main up a) because I'm an optimist b) it helps stop rolling on any swell c) it makes us more visible by eye to others, like ships. We should put a cone up but we don't, ships don't give a toss and would need binos to even see and very few other small boats will be close enough either.

So there you have it, since we don't motor sail in confined busy areas we don't bother much with cones. Mea culpa.

 

[RestlessL]

Next question. Who here displays an anchor light when on their swinging mooring. If not, why not?

Not me - but my swinging mooring is in Chichester Harbour, and the byelaws state:

"10. The Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea
now in force, or as amended from time to time, made by
Orders in Council in pursuance of the Merchant Shipping
Act 1894 shall apply to the harbour and to the vessels
navigating and being therein, with the exception that
vessels secured to permanent moorings in the harbour
shall not be required to display lights"

 

[Robin]

30 (a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;

Read it again and read all of it which says:-

Rule 30
Anchored vessels and vessels aground.
(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(I) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;

(ii) At or near the stern and at a lower level that the light prescribed in paragraph (I), an
all-round white light.
(b) A vessel of less than 50 metres in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can
best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.

I prefer to put our paraffin anchor light aft over the cockpit, between the gantry and the sprayhood. From here it gets a bit of shelter from the hood, lights the cockpit and the deck area ahead. It is also at the end of the boat nearest any new arrival coming in from seawards, assuming I'm anchored where the wind is offshore. I've compared the results of this setup with having it in fore triangle from afar (cocktails on friends boats or roving in the dink) and IMO it is better. Worst option IMO is the masthead all round white 50ft above our deck, looks like Venus, often can't see if it is on a boat 20ft away or 2mls away.

 

[VO5]

The cone ?

This is what I do...

when setting sail, the battens in my mainsail have the nasty habit of getting under the shroud after a certain height...so I have a drill which works very well for me.

I point the boat in the direction of the wind, start the engine and motor ahead under autopilot with just enough way to prevent her head paying off either way.

Simultaneously I begin to raise the mainsail, as fast as possible as high as possible by pulling hard on the main halyard. I then engage the self tailing winch to take the head to the truck, and as soon as that is done, with the sail sheeted perfectly amidships, engine off...

The boat lies head to wind, under way but not making way.

I then let out the genny and ease the mainsail and start making way.....

there is no need for a cone throughout all this.

However, in a busy harbour if I am under sail and motoring I always put it up, on the basis that if you have it, use it.

The anchor ball goes up the moment the anchor hits bottom and she is brought up. It comes down the moment the anchor is raised and breaks surface.

The all round white always when at anchor at night, no matter where.

Curiously in American waters they don't seem to use either or even seem to know what they mean.

 

[Woodlouse]

So why do the Colregs exist? Well, when there has actually been a collision, a court must have some recognised basis for determining who should pay up, or go to jail, for causing the damage, injury or death: otherwise insurance companies would be forever squabbling and wasting the court's time!

You've hit the nail bang on the head there. As long as you don't collide then you don't have to abide by any of the colregs. Only after you've had a collision are they required to spread the blame.

Naturally, if you abide by all the rules then a collision will never be your fault. But you'll still have had a collision. Where as a man who doesn't go by the rules, and doesn't have a crash will still have done nothing wrong.

 

[VO5]

The thing is you may suffer a collision but it may not be your fault as for example being run down by an inattentive lookout whilst at anchor.

That is why it is important to display the black ball by day and the allround white by night, so if you do suffer a collision (and even if it is not your fault) but have not obeyed the rules then it is your fault.

This is unless you are reckless or stupid or both and anchor in prohibited areas, for example.

What about the cone ?

Similar arguments would support its use when under sail and power, except when power is used for a very brief period to help raise a sail, and of course having due regard for circumstances supporting the case, like for example not getting in the way of traffic, or in the middle of a race, or in the path of a vessel towing or one needing deep draught or whatever.

One has to question whether there are people who are not fit to own boats or be allowed to operate them at all.

 

[NormanS]

I absolutely agree with Robin, that the worst place for the anchor light is at the masthead. I have an LED one which hangs off the end of the boom, can be seen from all round, and gives some light in the cockpit. Unlike a light at the masthead, it gives a good indication of the actual position of the boat. I use it quite often, but I cannot see the point in using an anchor ball when obviously anchored in a recognised anchorage. The chain leading down from the bow roller probably gives a clue.
If, however, I was anchored in a fairway, then yes, I would hoist an anchor ball. I am guilty of not using my cone, but where I sail, I hardly ever see any other boats.

 

[timbartlett]

You've hit the nail bang on the head there. As long as you don't collide then you don't have to abide by any of the colregs. Only after you've had a collision are they required to spread the blame.

Naturally, if you abide by all the rules then a collision will never be your fault. But you'll still have had a collision. Where as a man who doesn't go by the rules, and doesn't have a crash will still have done nothing wrong.

I do hope you are joking.
If not, may I suggest that you read the full title of the colregs. They are for preventing collisions at sea. And for the most part, they are written in very plain, straightforward english.
Having a collision is just one of the best ways of getting caught.
Plenty of people have had to fork out fines running into four and five figures for the criminal offence of infringing the collision regulations without having collided with anyone.
Any damages caused by a collision are a civil matter, and are quite separate.
Whether you, I or anyone else agrees with every letter of the colregs is a different matter (and quite irrelevant!)