PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Of course there is. Without knowing the precise orientation of the mobo it isn't possible to say exactly what the correct course of action is.
Do you ignore col regs
- Thread starter DAKA
- Start date
Of course there is. Without knowing the precise orientation of the mobo it isn't possible to say exactly what the correct course of action is.
Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
Re: " if I am crossing you then you are already passed". This is not correct. To be crossing you simply need to be approaching from a position forward of 22.5 degrees abaft the beam. At 25kts you could well be passing ahead of me. It depends entirely on your aspect. Your statement that I am on your port side - assuming you mean your port beam - would actually indicate that my vessel and your vessel were on diverging courses. A diagram would remove this obvious confusion.
CC
CC
DAKA
Well-Known Member
You said you perceived the situation as grey area, I am happy to go along with your assessment as your opinion is of greater value to me than even Fireballs.
so lets take your assessment being more experienced at around 22 degrees.
The above poll suggests that 80% of mobo skippers are not standing on to commercial ships ,
do you feel that most pleasure boats are standing on to you or avoiding you, have you noticed any difference this week since Tim helped us all to understand our obligations.
In a different situation to the above photo, how far to my stern would you helm if I was the stand on vessel @ 25 knots 90 degrees off your course.
so lets take your assessment being more experienced at around 22 degrees.
The above poll suggests that 80% of mobo skippers are not standing on to commercial ships ,
do you feel that most pleasure boats are standing on to you or avoiding you, have you noticed any difference this week since Tim helped us all to understand our obligations.
In a different situation to the above photo, how far to my stern would you helm if I was the stand on vessel @ 25 knots 90 degrees off your course.
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Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
Most leisure boats avoid getting into any situation at all with commercial shipping. This is the sensible approach, and whether it is down to a lack of knowlege, or previous experience is immaterial.
A small percentage "think" they know the rules, and risk life and limb to stubbornly prove it.
A small percentage actually do know the rules and behave as I would expect any competent navigator to behave.
Re: "In a different situation to the above photo, how far to my stern would you helm if I was the stand on vessel @ 25 knots 90 degrees off your course"
I don't understand what you are saying here ? If you were 90 degrees off my course that puts you on my beam (which one ?). If you were perpendicular to my course you can't hit me whatever speed you are doing.
How far would I helm ? do you mean how much rudder would I apply or how large an alteration would I make ?
I think you may have to give me a fuller description of exactly what it is you are trying describe - but a simple sketch would be better. That way I can give you an answer in 1 line rather than 50 posts.!!
CC
Cruiser2B
Well-Known Member
I think he's saying that he is 90° on your starboard beam, closing on a steady bearing (on a converging course). It's a crossing situation where you are the give-way vessel; when do you take action and what action do you take?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Thats very reassuring to know, thank you.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Correct
captain sensible is heading East @ 20 knts
Mobo is heading North @ 20knts
The MOBO due to exception circumstances has found himslf standing on to you.
Do you aim to pass the mobo stern with 100 meters to spare, 1/4 nm, 1/2 nm, 3/4 nm, 1nm
Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
"captain cautious is heading East @ 20 knts !! (lets say 14..)
Mobo is heading North @ 20knts
The MOBO due to exceptional circumstances has found himself standing on to you.
Do you aim to pass the mobo stern with 100 meters to spare, 1/4 nm, 1/2 nm, 3/4 nm, 1nm "
It depends on where we are. If the situation described is in a traffic lane, I'd probably slow down and let you pass 0.5 - .75 nm ahead.
If it was open sea, and you were, say 2 miles away, a 45 degree alteration to stbd until you are fine on the port bow and to let you see exactly what I'm doing, then follow your stern around - keeping it a couple of points on the port bow.
CC
Mobo is heading North @ 20knts
The MOBO due to exceptional circumstances has found himself standing on to you.
Do you aim to pass the mobo stern with 100 meters to spare, 1/4 nm, 1/2 nm, 3/4 nm, 1nm "
It depends on where we are. If the situation described is in a traffic lane, I'd probably slow down and let you pass 0.5 - .75 nm ahead.
If it was open sea, and you were, say 2 miles away, a 45 degree alteration to stbd until you are fine on the port bow and to let you see exactly what I'm doing, then follow your stern around - keeping it a couple of points on the port bow.
CC
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T
timbartlett
Guest
You may have gone to "a lot of trouble", but you still got a wildly wrong answer to a very simple question:-... I was taking the p155 when I suggested I could see a ship at 14 miles well enough to ascertain a collision situation.
Snowleopards photo
I perceive that as 1/2 nm and into immediate KZ.
I went to a lot of trouble in the last thread to calculate the actual distance and I was underestimating the distance.
Take the square root of your height of eye (in metres) and double it. That (as near as dammit) is the distance to your horizon in miles.
In Snowleopard's photo, we can see the tanker's bow wave virtually level with the horizon.
Therefore the ship is at about the same distance as the horizon. If it was further away, we wouldn't be able to see the bow wave/waterline because it would be beyond the horizon, and if it was closer, we would see the bow wave/waterline below the level of the horizon.
The laser and RIB are almost irrelevant, except that they do tell us that the photographer's height of eye was noticeably higher than the height of eye of the laser helmsman or RIB crew. If we assume that it was taken from a typical flybridge, then the height of eye is about 4-6 m. Let's say 4, because it's cautious and makes the arithmetic simple.
The square root of four is two. twice two is four. The horizon is four miles away, so the ship is at about 4 miles, perhaps a tad less. It could not possibly, under any stretch of the imagination, be half a mile away.
Can you see a ship at 14 miles?
If your height of eyes is 4m, then any part of a ship that is more than 25m above its waterline will be above your horizon when it is 14 miles away. As a guide, the lifeboats on the Queen Mary 2 are 25m above her waterline. So yes, you can see a ship at 14 miles, so long as the visibility is good enough, your eyes are good enough, and the ship is big enough. If you took a bearing of it then, and again when it was a six miles, it would not be difficult to assess whether it was "no risk"
That sums up the problem. Because you have grossly underestimated the range of the ship you are planning to take "immediate evasive action" when you are still, very clearly in the compulsory-stand-on phase of the encounter. This is about the range at which many OOWs would be altering course. You have not yet reached the optional-avoiding-action phase.
You cannot hope to make good decisions on the basis of such hopelessly flawed information as your guesstimates of range.
fireball
Well-Known Member
Oh come on Tim .. don't be shy - say what you really think!
And thanks for the lesson on range guestimates - that's really handy.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
You have missed the point Tim.
because I have grossly under estimated the range that puts us in absolute agreement with your col reg interpretation .
I would have already taken evasive action at twice the photo range.
The range I perceive to be 1/2 mile doubled is my1 mile .
You are telling me that my 1 mile is actually in excess of 6 miles ( double the photo which you say is 4 miles= 8 miles).
In effect I am taking evasive action at 8 miles , not in contravention of any col regs, debate sorted , happy may we part
.In the interests of moving also happy to accept there is loads of room here too, it was always my under estimating of distances that was an issue.
Here what I believed to be a shadow from the sail is probably a shadow from a passing aeroplane wing or large seagul.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
You have missed the point Tim.
because I have grossly under estimated the range that puts us in absolute agreement with your col reg interpretation .
I would have already taken evasive action at twice the photo range.
The range I perceive to be 1/2 mile doubled is my1 mile .
You are telling me that my 1 mile is actually in excess of 6 miles ( double the photo which you say is 4 miles= 8 miles).
In effect I am taking evasive action at 8 miles , not in contravention of any col regs, debate sorted , happy may we part
In the interests of moving also happy to accept there is loads of room here too, it was always my under estimating of distances that was an issue.
Here what I believed to be a shadow from the sail is probably a shadow from a passing aeroplane wing or large seagul.
I think Vela's skipper can be exonerated of all blame because he (or she) could not possibly have known what the grey object was as it appears not to be wearing any sort of an ensign.
PS I hope you don't mind but I love that second picture so much that I have borrowed it to use as a background on my computer. Obviously I will cease using it immediately if you object.
davidej
Well-Known Member
I really need to get a life but I have just read most of this record-breaking thread.
It is the heading -do you ignore colregs - that get us steamed up.
the poll should be
when you might possibly be in a cossing situation wth commercial traffic, do you:
1 take early action (such as a turn to port) so that rule 17 never applies
2 hold you course until rule 17 applies and then obey it
3 hold your course until rule 17 applies and then disobey it
I hope no one (mobo or raggie) would vote for 3
A lot of the confusion (IMveryHO) seens to stem from experience crossing the Channel. Much of it is a TSS and the crossing vessel (be it commercial, mobo or raggie ) is the give way vessel no matter what side the other one is on.
It is the heading -do you ignore colregs - that get us steamed up.
the poll should be
when you might possibly be in a cossing situation wth commercial traffic, do you:
1 take early action (such as a turn to port) so that rule 17 never applies
2 hold you course until rule 17 applies and then obey it
3 hold your course until rule 17 applies and then disobey it
I hope no one (mobo or raggie) would vote for 3
A lot of the confusion (IMveryHO) seens to stem from experience crossing the Channel. Much of it is a TSS and the crossing vessel (be it commercial, mobo or raggie ) is the give way vessel no matter what side the other one is on.
Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
Re "A lot of the confusion (IMveryHO) seens to stem from experience crossing the Channel. Much of it is a TSS and the crossing vessel (be it commercial, mobo or raggie ) is the give way vessel no matter what side the other one is on."
There is indeed a lot of confusion - and still it goes on. Being in a TSS in a lane does not bestow upon a vessel any rights that it did not already have.
In a crossing situation, with a power driven vessel on the stbd bow crossing from stbd to port, if I am in a lane and risk of collision exists - I am the give way vessel.
The power driven vessel crossing the lane is the stand on vessel.
Same applies to any other kind of vessel. "Not to Impede" is something poorly understood.
CC
There is indeed a lot of confusion - and still it goes on. Being in a TSS in a lane does not bestow upon a vessel any rights that it did not already have.
In a crossing situation, with a power driven vessel on the stbd bow crossing from stbd to port, if I am in a lane and risk of collision exists - I am the give way vessel.
The power driven vessel crossing the lane is the stand on vessel.
Same applies to any other kind of vessel. "Not to Impede" is something poorly understood.
CC
davidej
Well-Known Member
Shows how humble my O was!
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Would it be fair to say this means that a crossing craft should avoid the risk of collision occuring but if it does exist then the normal rules apply?
Capt Cautious
Well-Known Member
fishing vessels, sailing vessels and vessels less than 20m in length must not impede the safe passage of a vessel using a lane.
This means that they must indeed avoid the risk of collision occurring, and should actually take action before the colregs come into effect. A slightly troublesome concept to grasp - but in laymans terms - as you say - avoid the risk of collision developing, just stay out of the way - early.
once risk of collision exists normal rules apply, but the "not to impede" vessel is still required "not to impede"
CC
This means that they must indeed avoid the risk of collision occurring, and should actually take action before the colregs come into effect. A slightly troublesome concept to grasp - but in laymans terms - as you say - avoid the risk of collision developing, just stay out of the way - early.
once risk of collision exists normal rules apply, but the "not to impede" vessel is still required "not to impede"
CC
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DAKA
Well-Known Member
I m pleased you spotted the significance of the second photo, it just about summarizes all 500 posts from both scuttlebutts and here in one photo.....
You probably spotted both sailing boats in the first photo here
Yacht 1756 is just outside the 6 mile limit so he is not compelled to stand on.
Yacht Vela has just crept inside the 6 mile limit , it takes about 20 minutes to prepare to tack........
Move seating cushions from one side to another, check the stove gimbals are free , wedge your cup of tea somewhere and locate the winch handle.
Anyway too late for our hero Vela who stands on.
Now photo 2 as you have so astutely noticed yacht 1756 has now helmed to port being safely outside the 6 mile limit.
Vela maintains his stand on status in RYA text book fashion until he safely clears the stern and resumes course.
Classic, and proof the RYA interpretation is correct, well earned respect for the scuttlebutts who have been patient enough to teach me how to more accurately estimate distances, previously I had interpreted this same incident as a near miss.
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fireball
Well-Known Member
The sheeting angle hasn't changed on 1756L - and I deduce from that that neither has the course - he hasn't turned to port ... the camera angle has changed significantly though!
Yacht Vela - or 1135L (as I can read the sail number!) is picking up a bacon sarnie as they ran out of gas and did an imeadiate Panpan which got an excellent response from the nearest suitable vessel - so they needed to get that close, otherwise the bread would have got soggy.
Yacht Vela - or 1135L (as I can read the sail number!) is picking up a bacon sarnie as they ran out of gas and did an imeadiate Panpan which got an excellent response from the nearest suitable vessel - so they needed to get that close, otherwise the bread would have got soggy.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Fortunately being COLREGS 'challanged' is not the sole preserve of us raggies as demonstrated in the below account from another thread