Do you ignore col regs

timbartlett said:
No problem.

I'm sure the expertise of the YBW forum is so highly regarded in international shipping circles that it should be easy to persuade IMO to introduce a new rule.

Just as ships that cannot conform to the colregs are required to display NUC, RIAM or CBD shapes, maybe recreational craft that can't be bothered to conform could display a special signal.

Something like this, perhaps :D:
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:D:D

timbartlett said:
This is probably the crux of the matter.
In the tanker example, in which you are crossing a tanker at roughly the same speed and roughly 90 degrees, if he alters course by 10 degrees at 6 miles, he should pass a mile behind you if you hold your course and speed. If he is going to pass a mile behind you, the only way that you can be a quarter of a mile in front of him is if you alter course to port or slow down -- the very actions that you (and others) are proposing are the only ones that can possibly create the situation you say you are trying to avoid! It is simple mental arithmetic and geometry, but I've sketched it out below. It's very similar if you assume he makes a 5 degree alteration, except that he will pass half a mile behind you and you will pass half a mile ahead of him. You still won't get within a quarter of a mile of each other.
T=0 is the time at which the collision would have happened if the ship had not altered course at T-18. The red thing is a Panamax tanker, the green blob is a 15m motor boat (at ten times the scale, because otherwise it wouldn't show up on my diagram). Both are moving at 20kts, and their positions are shown at one minute intervals.
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I dont have an issue with your diagram, thankyou and it just reaffirms what I have being saying for a day or two, we both understand the same principles , its just a gap in the way we choose to portray our thoughts
timbartlett said:
FFS. Just read the rules, will you. They are not difficult. They are in plain english. The only difficulty is..."If a ship alters course 5-10 degrees to go round my stern I am still not comfortable in standing on.". In other words, you do not like obeying them.
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Its that bit Tim where I and if I may suggest , a few more that start to get a bit wobbly at the knees .
What you appear to be asking us to do is to hold course and pass infront of a Tanker with families on board within 40-45 seconds to death ( 1/4 mile @24 knots) , you get annoyed at me for daring to suggest 1/4 infront of a Tanker isnt safe, I dont feel a judge would prosecute me for breaking 'Tims law' in this respect, I call it 'Tims law' as I dont feel it is consistent with col regs.
Its a bit like reading an old book on how to cross the A1 where 40 years ago it was safe to cross , but should I trust this book now knowing how much faster the traffic is these days or should I make my own judgement at the scene

But dont worry Tim, cos Fireball YBW forum guru has sorted it for us. :)
 
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DAKA said:
What you appear to be asking us to do is to hold course and pass infront of a Tanker with families on board within 40-45 seconds to death ( 1/4 mile @24 knots) , you get annoyed at me for daring to suggest 1/4 infront of a Tanker isnt safe, I dont feel a judge would prosecute me for breaking 'Tims law' in this respect, I call it 'Tims law' as I dont feel it is consistent with col regs.
Its a bit like reading an old book on how to cross the A1 where 40 years ago it was safe to cross , but should I trust this book now knowing how much faster the traffic is these days or should I make my own judgement at the scene

But dont worry Tim, cos Fireball YBW forum guru has sorted it for us. :)
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Well - as Forum Rule 17 Guru - I'll tell you now that 40-45 seconds isn't a big enough time gap - bother the distance!

At 6Nm you are entering into the stand-on give way stakes - for you at 24kts that is 15 minutes to impact, for me at 6-7kts it is closer to 1 hour.
If you've entered the 6Nm range (as Tim has said it is around this figure that has been tested in court? - probably for ships and not small leisure craft) then you hold your course. After 10 minutes (so 2/3rds of the time to impact) - then you will be 2Nm away from the impact zone. Around that time you can take final avoiding action if the other vessel doesn't appear to be doing so - but at that range you're unlikely to be able to tell if the tanker has also taken 'last minute avoiding action' and therefore despite temptation you would be better off turning to starboard as per colregs - I would (with no experience of mobos!) probably slow down at the same time, then if the ship is continuing on it's merry way then I'd alter course to go to it's stern - but only once it was obvious that I was taking the avoiding action and it wasn't!
On a slowboat with flappy bits changing course is a bit more of a palava - but with 20 minutes to go (2/3rds of the time spent standing on) it is something that needs to be done.
Obviously - the path of least resistance is not to get to that 6Nm zone with a ship ...

The 6Nm zone I take to apply to open water situations - and generally with large vessels - or large vs small ... with small vessels it would be likely that you wouldn't see each other or be able to evaluate each others courses until closer than 6Nm and therefore a much smaller comfort circle applies.

Here endeth the lesion ...
 
DAKA said:
What you appear to be asking us to do is to hold course and pass infront of a Tanker with families on board within 40-45 seconds to death ( 1/4 mile @24 knots) , you get annoyed at me for daring to suggest 1/4 infront of a Tanker isnt safe,
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No I am not saying that.
[size=+1]No I am not saying that.[/size]
[size=+2]No I am not saying that.[/size]
How can I make this any clearer?

If a tanker has altered course to pass 1 mile behind you, and you are doing about the same speed as him, then you will pass one mile ahead of him. Not a quarter of a mile.
And at 20 knots, 1 mile is three minutes -- not "a few seconds". At 24 knots it's 2.5 minutes. That's not "a few" seconds, either.

If you were trying to pass closer to him than he intended, then the best way to do it would be to do exactly what you continue to suggest -- i.e, alter course to port. That is why the colregs tell you not to do it. It is almost guaranteed to make matters worse, not better.

DAKA said:
I dont feel a judge would prosecute me for breaking 'Tims law' in this respect, I call it 'Tims law' as I dont feel it is consistent with col regs.
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So you don't think you could be prosecuted for flouting the colregs because when the colregs say "don't turn to port" you think they really mean you should turn to port? Please don't come up with the hoary old chestnut of Rule 2b. It applies in special circumstances. Not every time a small boat meets a boat that is bigger than it is

DAKA said:
Its a bit like reading an old book on how to cross the A1
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I would understand what you mean if we were still relying on the rules exactly as they were written in the nineteenth century. But you are ignoring the fact that the colregs are under constant review, and are regularly updated. Amendments were made to the 1972 rules in 1981, 1987, 1989, 1993, 2001, and 2007. And yet, for some reason, Rule 17 has survived for over a century, with additions, rather than deletions (the ban on turning to port is one of the additions). Don't you think it would have been dumped by now -- rather than reinforced -- if it was as fatally flawed as you think?
 
rbcoomer said:
Not at all. If it takes the 'pros' this long to debate,
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It doesn't take the pros this long to debate. You may get the odd rogue, or the odd individual who makes a mistake, but the pros know the rules inside out and back to front and obey them.

When I was at Dartmouth there was no "pass mark" for the colregs exam. If you didn't get 100%, you failed. Full stop.
 
timbartlett said:
If a tanker has altered course to pass 1 mile behind you, and you are doing about the same speed as him, then you will pass one mile ahead of him. Not a quarter of a mile.
And at 20 knots, 1 mile is three minutes -- not "a few seconds". At 24 knots it's 2.5 minutes. That's not "a few" seconds, either.

Iam happy with that part, thank you, I thought we had already agreed a mile in front is a reasonable safety margin.
But the next bit, we have to be talking at crossed purposes again, when I said in post 164

"If a ship alters course 5-10 degrees to go round my stern I am still not comfortable in standing on.

The reason being it is not safe to pass 1/4 mile infront of a Tanker .
a) you cant be certain he has seen you
b) there are numerous reasons why my speed can be interrupted leaving me a sitting duck."
you replied


FFS. Just read the rules, will you. They are not difficult. They are in plain english. The only difficulty is..."If a ship alters course 5-10 degrees to go round my stern I am still not comfortable in standing on.". In other words, you do not like obeying them.

If the ship has only altered to miss by 1/4 mile is 40 seconds to impact at my cruising speed, Fireball has made a clear statement that this is unsafe and has gained my respect for recognising this fact, however your post to me gives the impression under a minute to impact is normal practice.






I would understand what you mean if we were still relying on the rules exactly as they were written in the nineteenth century. But you are ignoring the fact that the colregs are under constant review, and are regularly updated. Amendments were made to the 1972 rules in 1981, 1987, 1989, 1993, 2001, and 2007. And yet, for some reason, Rule 17 has survived for over a century, with additions, rather than deletions (the ban on turning to port is one of the additions). Don't you think it would have been dumped by now -- rather than reinforced -- if it was as fatally flawed as you think?
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Again I am happy with the col regs , its an issue with the way you are representing the RYA interpretation of them.

May I suggest we agree to differ and move on in life.
It appears you have swung the 80% in your favour as its only one or two of us who are still reading this thread.

It would be interesting for you to run a poll asking the same questions now and we should see a completely different result in both sail and power now the forum is educated.

Would you like to re post the poll or would you like me to do it ?
Perhaps Fireball will agree to post the scuttlebutts poll, think some may skin me alive if I try.
 
I have a problem with this assumption that a ship will only alter 5-10° to nip around the stern of a crossing vessel. It is entirely possible that a ship might consider a small course alteration like that, very early in the interaction (at 6 miles or greater), which would result in passing astern of the stand on vessel by about a mile. This is not typical of most crossing situations, where the alteration will be made at 2-3 miles range. In this case, a bold alteration would be required by the rules, and what I would typically do would be to turn to point at the stand on vessel - in the case where we are converging on perpendicular paths at similar speeds, this would be a 40-45° turn. As the stand on vessel clears to my port bow, I might step around back to a course parallel to my original, but at no time would I pass at less than 1000 yards astern (navigation and traffic density permitting). Many large ships have a huge blind zone ahead of the bow, and are loathe to put another vessel in it - so I have a hard time believing they would be happy passing at a quarter mile, at speed.
Since this is apparently a concern of Daka's - if his prop fouled and he was left a sitting duck right in front of me, it would be at a range of 2-3 miles, giving me loads of time to determine what happened and take additional avoiding measures; it would also give Daka time to hoist NUC signals (I'm sure since this is such a common problem, he must have the signals bent on and ready to go ;) ).
Should have added, if you as the stand on vessel notice that the give way vessel has only altered a few degrees and will pass uncomfortably close to you, then 17(a)(ii) allows you to alter a few degrees to starboard to increase that passing distance.
 
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So, we're all in agreement then.

1) When we see a ship off of our port bow, at a good distance, we will make an obvious turn to port and pass behind his stern.

2) If we do not, for whatever reason, carry out (1) we will follow Colregs (especially taking note that Colregs will allow us to turn to starboard if we feel we are going to pass too close to the bow of the ship)
 
PaulGooch said:
1) When we see a ship off of our port bow, at a good distance, we will make an obvious turn to port and pass behind his stern.
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Might add since you have radar, AIS and all the goodies, you can always call him on VHF, tell him you're the pleasure craft X miles on his starboard bow, that you're turning to port and will pass astern of him. That way he'll get your intentions loud and clear and won't be wondering what you're up to.
 
Cruiser2B said:
Might add since you have radar, AIS and all the goodies, you can always call him on VHF, tell him you're the pleasure craft X miles on his starboard bow, that you're turning to port and will pass astern of him. That way he'll get your intentions loud and clear and won't be wondering what you're up to.
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Very good summary.
 
Cruiser2B said:
Might add since you have radar, AIS and all the goodies, you can always call him on VHF, tell him you're the pleasure craft X miles on his starboard bow, that you're turning to port and will pass astern of him. That way he'll get your intentions loud and clear and won't be wondering what you're up to.
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Unless you're not the only pleasure craft and he identifies you as the wrong one - and then the wrong one stands on whilst he assumes it's going to turn to port ... then .....

Best off just making your intentions known early and clearly - and not get into the areas where the colregs come into affect ... this isn't always possible for raggies for the reasons set out earlier in this epic.
 
PaulGooch said:
So, we're all in agreement then.

1) When we see a ship off of our port bow, at a good distance, we will make an obvious turn to port and pass behind his stern.

2) If we do not, for whatever reason, carry out (1) we will follow Colregs (especially taking note that Colregs will allow us to turn to starboard if we feel we are going to pass too close to the bow of the ship)
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A very good summary Paul, 'all in agreement' is a very brave statement, perhaps 80% is more accurate.

Would you care to specify 'good distance' ?
 
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